Bahar parks the car!

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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby mario » 08 Apr 2012, 18:52

Boomstick wrote:
mario wrote:
Boomstick wrote:Oh I will bounce off the walls big time if there is a Alfa Romeo team :D ....with joy that is!

(The only team I could ditch Williams for)

You're going to have to keep on dreaming about that - bear in mind that Alfa Romeo is part of the Fiat group, and as Jeremy Clarkson once said on the relationship between Alfa Romeo and Ferrari "Making an Alfa Romeo that is faster than a Ferrari would be more sacrilegious than vomiting on the Pope".

On a serious note, it does beg the question of who the team might want to take over as title sponsor - if things are going as badly wrong as we think over at Group Lotus, it'd make sense to ditch the Lotus name fairly quickly to avoid being tarnished by association. As Backmarker points out, whilst the Enstone team will probably survive, albeit under a different name, the teams in the lower open wheel series or sports cars (including Kolles's team, who were due to run a Group Lotus branded LMP2 car) could take a much larger financial hit, or collapse altogether.


Well Ferrari did grow out of Alfa Romeo to start with....and any "Alfa" team would use a Ferrari motor, just like the 8c....so a real Alfa Romeo? No

Still I honestly wonder what was going through Enzo's head when Fiat purchased Alfa in 1986...the Alfa Romeo F1 team had withdrawn a year before at Adelaide, revenge? But then Alfa did have this wierd tie up with the Ligier team, but they got ditched for the BMW megatron motor?

I suppose at that time Ferrari where on the ropes a bit, and the worst case scenario for Enzo would be Alfa Romeo doing well. Still that crappy Turbo V8 was too thirsty to be a problem to him :-/

Whilst it is true that the Alfa Romeo branded team withdrew in 1985, it could be argued that Alfa Romeo had effectively withdrawn in 1983 - the last two years of the F1 team's operations were under the management of Euroracing (although Autodelta, Alfa's racing subsidiary, continued supplying engines, Euroracing were designing and manufacturing the rest of the car).
As for Enzo Ferrari, he probably would not have been too concerned about Alfa Romeo - given that Alfa Romeo's finances were pretty poor at the time, their racing programs weren't really properly funded, plus the turbo V8 (which never really made sense at the time, or indeed now) was, as you say, far too thirsty for a fuel limited formula.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Backmarker » 08 Apr 2012, 19:59

Spotted on autosport, an image that explains the Lotus mess in an easy to understand way:

EDIT: Darn, forums don't stretch for images, so here's a link: http://i.imgur.com/VvCTy.jpg
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby eurobrun » 08 Apr 2012, 20:07

Backmarker wrote:Spotted on autosport, an image that explains the Lotus mess in an easy to understand way:

EDIT: Darn, forums don't stretch for images, so here's a link: http://i.imgur.com/VvCTy.jpg


That is absolutely epic.

Anyway, just bring Benetton back with their 1989 livery.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby nome66 » 08 Apr 2012, 23:29

or the benetton with the Ford TEC v6.
anyways, i might make a flowchart like that for the Renault F1 team just for giggles.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby tzerof1 » 10 Apr 2012, 09:40

eurobrun wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
Boomstick wrote:Still I honestly wonder what was going through Enzo's head when Fiat purchased Alfa in 1986...the Alfa Romeo F1 team had withdrawn a year before at Adelaide, revenge? But then Alfa did have this wierd tie up with the Ligier team, but they got ditched for the BMW megatron motor?


Ligier WOULD have gotten the Alfa engines if Rene Arnoux had kept his bloody mouth shut :lol:


And all I can say to that is bullsh*t

:lol: good to see a little of James Hunt's brutal honesty working its way in. But in all seriousness what the hell was Dany Bahar playing at, expanding the Group Lotus name across motorsport so rapidly, with seemingly no regard to the future implications of the expenditure of hundreds of millions(perhaps billions?) that it would have on the company. He should have realised that it wasn't smart to do given the current global economy and should have been a lot more cautious about it. But now, as mario mentioned earlier, the teams being sponsored by Group Lotus in the smaller categories will be endangered because of it. It all seems like something that could have been averted. Also, it makes me quite annoyed that he went through all that trouble to fight Tony Fernandes and his team that was seen by many to be worthy of continuing the Lotus legacy, for usage rights of the Lotus name, only to back out now. Also on a related note, according to this article (albeit a bit on the old side)http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-lotus-sale-wont-impact-racing-plans-working-on-engine-supply/, the changes won't have any effect on their IndyCar program.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Wizzie » 10 Apr 2012, 10:10

tzerof1 wrote:
eurobrun wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Ligier WOULD have gotten the Alfa engines if Rene Arnoux had kept his bloody mouth shut :lol:


And all I can say to that is bullsh*t

:lol: good to see a little of James Hunt's brutal honesty working its way in. But in all seriousness what the hell was Dany Bahar playing at, expanding the Group Lotus name across motorsport so rapidly, with seemingly no regard to the future implications of the expenditure of hundreds of millions(perhaps billions?) that it would have on the company.


The company? Dude, he took the entire Malaysian car industry to hell with him :lol:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Stramala » 10 Apr 2012, 10:13

It sounds a lot like Bahahahahar followed the Scuderia Alitalia business expansion model... Image
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby AndreaModa » 10 Apr 2012, 10:18

kostas22 wrote:It sounds a lot like Bahahahahar followed the Scuderia Alitalia business expansion model... Image


:o He's been following the F1RWRS! Maybe that Group Lotus entry in the 2012 season wasn't dr-baker after all... :lol:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Stramala » 10 Apr 2012, 10:21

AndreaModa wrote:
kostas22 wrote:It sounds a lot like Bahahahahar followed the Scuderia Alitalia business expansion model... Image


:o He's been following the F1RWRS! Maybe that Group Lotus entry in the 2012 season wasn't dr-baker after all... :lol:

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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby tzerof1 » 10 Apr 2012, 13:06

Wizzie wrote:The company? Dude, he took the entire Malaysian car industry to hell with him :lol:


Very true. Wonder what Alex Yoong has to say about this :lol:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby mario » 10 Apr 2012, 19:42

tzerof1 wrote: :lol: good to see a little of James Hunt's brutal honesty working its way in. But in all seriousness what the hell was Dany Bahar playing at, expanding the Group Lotus name across motorsport so rapidly, with seemingly no regard to the future implications of the expenditure of hundreds of millions(perhaps billions?) that it would have on the company. He should have realised that it wasn't smart to do given the current global economy and should have been a lot more cautious about it. But now, as mario mentioned earlier, the teams being sponsored by Group Lotus in the smaller categories will be endangered because of it. It all seems like something that could have been averted. Also, it makes me quite annoyed that he went through all that trouble to fight Tony Fernandes and his team that was seen by many to be worthy of continuing the Lotus legacy, for usage rights of the Lotus name, only to back out now. Also on a related note, according to this article (albeit a bit on the old side)http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-lotus-sale-wont-impact-racing-plans-working-on-engine-supply/, the changes won't have any effect on their IndyCar program.

Bahar's decision to spray sponsorship cash around like water was probably because he felt overly confident with the belief that the Malaysian government would continue propping up Proton, so he was probably assuming that the Malaysian government would eventually pick up the bill for all the sponsorship deals and new models that he was proposing. Now that it looks like the funding taps have been turned off, it is surely only a matter of time before Bahar's hubris tears Group Lotus apart - and considering the size of the loans Proton has made to it, perhaps taking Proton down with him...
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby DanielPT » 10 Apr 2012, 21:17

As soon as Bahahahar announced his ludicrous plans for Group Lotus the writing was on the wall. The enormous quantity of cars he presented without having established models selling and supporting the whole business could only end this way. To make success at the scale Bahahahar wanted, one can only succeed if a) it is a new product that becomes fashionable or b) his product is miles above the competition. Neither was the case. You only need to think of Red Bull, in case of a) and Apple, in case of b) and in both it took many years to reach where they are now and a base solid business. Car manufacturing is very much established and to make a name for themselves, well, you need to look no further than McLaren... Bahahahar, it's game over for you.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby dinizintheoven » 10 Apr 2012, 23:18

Backmarker wrote:Spotted on autosport, an image that explains the Lotus mess in an easy to understand way:
EDIT: Darn, forums don't stretch for images, so here's a link: http://i.imgur.com/VvCTy.jpg

I can sum up the "Lotus" mess far more succinctly.

Image

Expect this piece of land to shake violently, caused by the great man spinning in his grave. Or, likely as not, he will jump right out of it and chop Dany Bahar's head off with a sharpened side skirt from the Lotus 79.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby AndreaModa » 11 Apr 2012, 00:06

dinizintheoven wrote:Expect this piece of land to shake violently, caused by the great man spinning in his grave. Or, likely as not, he will jump right out of it and chop Dany Bahar's head off with a sharpened side skirt from the Lotus 79.


Great Aunt Nelly would be proud! :lol:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Phoenix » 11 Apr 2012, 02:36

I never thought I would write this, or even think this... When I was planning to enter this forum as an user, before it was known that Lotus would return to F1, I thought my initial sig would read something like: "Rooting for a return of the Lotus name to F1", since I was always a big fan of Lotus and Colin Chapman. But, now I only have this to say...

Let the Lotus name die again, and let it rest on the history books instead of dragging their name on the mud for longer. Forever. To whoever this applies (see Tyrrell, Brabham, BRM). They're just a part of the past and they have such a rich legacy they don't deserve to be ressucitated only for things like these to happen (anyone remembers the BRM sports car fiasco of the 1990s?)
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Backmarker » 11 Apr 2012, 02:41

dinizintheoven wrote:Expect this piece of land to shake violently, caused by the great man spinning in his grave.


Perhaps they could replace Raikkonen's rear axle with Chapman's rotating corpse?
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Phoenix » 12 Apr 2012, 02:23

Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby East Londoner » 12 Apr 2012, 03:02

Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886

FACT: Lotus Cars believes that Sniff Petrol is a proper news website! :lol:

Dear God, I haven't laughed so hard. What a pathetic showing! :lol:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby tristan1117 » 12 Apr 2012, 03:11

East Londoner wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886

FACT: Lotus Cars believes that Sniff Petrol is a proper news website! :lol:

Dear God, I haven't laughed so hard. What a pathetic showing! :lol:


All I can say is Baharharharharhar! :lol:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Shadaza » 12 Apr 2012, 04:16

I have never read such aggresive hateful posts from any "PR" company ever. Whilst I didn't think it was right for Caterham to be called Lotus at least they didn't make their dirty laundry public like that. Disgraceful.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby solarcold » 12 Apr 2012, 05:36

This is a pure shame. I will never forgive Lotus their agressiveness towards Tony Fernandes, who is 10 times more passionate about the sport. After leaving him without the name he'd returned and leaving them without nearly no chance to be competitive - they laugh at Caterham's titanic effort to progress? Sorry, Lotus, your idiotism is unforgivable. It's an agony. Agonising attempts to change the focus of people's attention.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Faustus » 12 Apr 2012, 06:07

This is a press release by Group Lotus, not the-team-formerly-known-as-Renault-Benetton-Toleman, right? I wonder what Genii and Eric Boullier think about this idiotic and ridiculous public statement.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby dr-baker » 12 Apr 2012, 06:08

There is a famous phrase on these forums: "Autosport or it didn't happen." Well, it happened. It is quite something as I believe it is rare for Autosport to reproduce in full any team's press statement. It seems to have drawn attention. But not all publicity is good publicity, and this is a good example. As I have recently posted, I still consider the Enstone team to be Renault, not Lotus. I can get used to Marussia not being Virgin. I had no problems with any of Jordan/Force India's name changes, or any other team name change. But to me, Lotus refers more to Caterham than Renault. Maybe it is because no name has reverted from one team to another in consecutive seasons before. Maybe it ought to be forbidden to prevent situations like this from arising. And I don't care if they try downplaying it with humour. At least on here, it already seems like any attempt at humour has gone wrong, as the posts below the statement on Facebook seem to confirm.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby AndreaModa » 12 Apr 2012, 06:14

It's a monumental cock-up, I can't think of anyone who in their right minds would back Group Lotus after this. I don't mean the Enstone-based team, just the Group Lotus company.

The fall-out from this I suspect will be quite far-reaching. This is just the beginning.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Faustus » 12 Apr 2012, 06:15

This simply proves that there is definitely something to what Tony Fernandes and Joe Saward have been posting and tweeting lately, otherwise why bother denying it?
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby mario » 12 Apr 2012, 06:54

Faustus wrote:This is a press release by Group Lotus, not the-team-formerly-known-as-Renault-Benetton-Toleman, right? I wonder what Genii and Eric Boullier think about this idiotic and ridiculous public statement.

Especially since some of the comments that Group Lotus seem to run counter to the comments that Lopez made when he announced that the sponsorship deal with Group Lotus was ending. Back on April 6th Lopez announced that the Lotus team had bought out Group Lotus's option over their team:
AUTOSPORT understands that Genii owner Gerard Lopez recently agreed a deal for the title sponsorship deal, which was originally put together in 2010, to be cancelled, as well as an old option that Proton had to buy 50 per cent of the team annulled.

Speaking about the situation, Lopez told AUTOSPORT: "The sponsorship agreement and the obligations of Lotus have been terminated. There is no option from Group Lotus to buy into F1 now - that option was taken over by us. There was one, but we have taken it over now."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98628

Now, today we have Group Lotus claiming that:
...Proton retains the rights to purchase 10% of the F1 team. Another 10% share option will be activated if the team default on their loan obligations with Proton.

OK, in one instance we are talking about Group Lotus and in the other Proton, but the point remains that one side claims that it has a right to buy into the team, and the other side claims to have bought them out. It doesn't quite fit together, does it - and more awkwardly, Group Lotus's statement could be seen as accusing Lopez of spreading false rumours, considering that it was his recent statement that his team was cancelling their deal with Group Lotus sparked off the rumours.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Backmarker » 12 Apr 2012, 08:02

Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886


...the hell did I just read? It seems Group Lotus is having a nervous break down on the internet.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Ataxia » 12 Apr 2012, 08:52

Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886


:lol: Good god, they're REALLY paranoid. To personify them, it's like someone shivering in a foetal position reciting 'We're still in business, we're still in F1'. To air your problems over Facebook is something else as well. They've chosen the one medium worse than a flock of journalists.

Well, Genii disagree with the ownership option. And I'm more tempted to believe them, seeing as they're the ones that own the team.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Wizzie » 12 Apr 2012, 08:56

I think it's safe to say Danny Bahar and his merry men have done the impossible and beaten Felipe Massa to early ROTY favouritism :lol:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Ataxia » 12 Apr 2012, 09:03

One more point that I've just remembered...

Gerard Lopez was linked a few weeks ago with purchasing Group Lotus.

So a) Why would Group Lotus give him a loan if he's possibly going to buy the company?
and b) Do Group Lotus actually HAVE the money to give him a loan?

This is completely befuddling...and seeing as (according to Lopez) the Unilever and Microsoft deals are quite large financially, does he really need that money?

I need a lie-down.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby eurobrun » 12 Apr 2012, 09:27

Dany Bahar is a disgrace to the Lotus name and all of F1.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Shadaza » 12 Apr 2012, 09:30

I can practically feel the pain from all the hard working souls at Enstone.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby nigellamansell » 12 Apr 2012, 17:35

Good to see Group Lotus, not Lotus-who-merged-with-Pacific, Catherham-who-were-lotus-before-Proten-stiffed-them or Toleman-Benetton-Renault-Lotus having a meltdown!

I bet Chapman is spinning in his grave right now
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Ross Prawn » 12 Apr 2012, 18:04

Bahar has obviously gone bonkers, poor chap. Expect to see him working in your local chip shop anytime soon.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby DanielPT » 12 Apr 2012, 19:09

I think Group Lotus is now baharking at trees.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby madmark1974 » 12 Apr 2012, 19:10

My local news program, Look East, had the Lotus story as its main headline, as there are apparently 1,200 jobs at stake at the Norfolk factory.

Here is a link to it, for those with iPlayer access (mine doesn't work but the link ~should~ be ok) - let me know if it doesn't work (if anyone actually wants to watch it anyway) ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01fm7yd/Look_East_East_11_04_2012/

I have a vested interest in this as my dad used to work for Lotus cars in the early 1970s, so none to pleased to see the classic marque dragged through the mud.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby DanielPT » 12 Apr 2012, 19:13

madmark1974 wrote:My local news program, Look East, had the Lotus story as its main headline, as there are apparently 1,200 jobs at stake at the Norfolk factory.

Here is a link to it, for those with iPlayer access (mine doesn't work but the link ~should~ be ok) - let me know if it doesn't work (if anyone actually wants to watch it anyway) ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01fm7yd/Look_East_East_11_04_2012/

I have a vested interest in this as my dad used to work for Lotus cars in the early 1970s, so none to pleased to see the classic marque dragged through the mud.


BBC doesn't care about British people living outside UK. It's not my case (in the being British part) but that is an irrelevant detail to the matter.

EDIT: Actually I have seen they went to the effort of creating a youtube channel for overseas British people. Let's just say they care but a bit less... :P
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby Minardi Man » 13 Apr 2012, 05:30

Danny Bahar go home!

Leave the enstone team formerly known as Renault be :evil:
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby DonTirri » 13 Apr 2012, 07:11

Somebody oughta call the Benettons. Thats one name _I wouldnt mind seeing back :P
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Re: Bahar parks the car!

Postby DanielPT » 13 Apr 2012, 07:19

DonTirri wrote:Somebody oughta call the Benettons. Thats one name _I wouldnt mind seeing back :P


I would prefer Ted Toleman back! Or his kid Michael.
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