What If?

[BlindCaveSalamander]

So, after watching some videos of Keke Rosberg in action, I've been wondering: What if he stayed at Williams for 1986 and 1987, when the Honda turbos finally came good?

[JeremyMcClean]

So, after watching some videos of Keke Rosberg in action, I've been wondering: What if he stayed at Williams for 1986 and 1987, when the Honda turbos finally came good?

Rosberg easily wins the 86 title, barely loses the 87 title to Mansell (who would I presume would not have been bothered at all by Rosberg seeing Piquet is nowhere to be found), and retires after 1988 due to how crap the Judd engines are.

His replacement in 1989 is Riccardo Patrese. He lives happily at Williams for the rest of his career, and nothing else changes. Piquet stays at Brabham for 1986 and stays there until his retirement in 1988.

Here's another question: What if Honda decided to power only Williams instead of McLaren in 1988?

[BlindCaveSalamander]

So, after watching some videos of Keke Rosberg in action, I've been wondering: What if he stayed at Williams for 1986 and 1987, when the Honda turbos finally came good?

Rosberg easily wins the 86 title, barely loses the 87 title to Mansell (who would I presume would not have been bothered at all by Rosberg seeing Piquet is nowhere to be found), and retires after 1988 due to how crap the Judd engines are.

His replacement in 1989 is Riccardo Patrese. He lives happily at Williams for the rest of his career, and nothing else changes. Piquet stays at Brabham for 1986 and stays there until his retirement in 1988.

Here's another question: What if Honda decided to power only Williams instead of McLaren in 1988?

Basically, I'd imagine Williams and McLaren's fortunes are switched. Mansell would easily win the 1988, 1989, and 1990 titles, though McLaren are a bit closer in those seasons than Williams were. Senna and Prost may or may not have their feud, depending on whether or not they can focus on their common enemy. 1991 becomes a fantastic season as Mansell fights off Senna and Prost, with Senna taking the title.

McLaren then go into ascendancy, and the Senna/Prost feud begins in earnest, as there is nobody else to challenge them. Prost takes his third title in 1992, while Senna wins it in 1993. Prost leaves McLaren for Benetton, with Mika Hakkinen partnering Senna. Senna takes his third title in 1994, before Prost winning it in 1995. Both then retire, leaving a relatively unproven Schumacher and Hakkinen to duke it out in 1996, with Hakkinen winning the title. Hakkinen wins a second title in 1997, while Schumacher leaves Benetton for Ferrari at the end of that year.

Meanwhile, after a couple of rocky seasons, Williams secure a tie-up with Mercedes, and rely on Damon Hill to try and drag them out of the doldrums. They finally do it in 1998, as McLaren falter without their Renault engines, with Hill winning that title and the 1999 crown, fending off Schumacher's Ferrari in 1998 and Irvine's in 1999. 2000 sees McLaren partner up with BMW, but with that partnership in its infancy, and Hill's Williams suffering reliability issues, the door is open for Schumacher to win his first title. The Williams-Mercedes in 2001 is a bit off the pace, but the McLaren-BMW of Hakkinen is not and gives Schumacher a real fight, but the Ferrari prevails. Hill retires after 2001, with Mercedes' Nick Heidfeld given the go-ahead to replace him after a superb season for Sauber, to partner Juan Pablo Montoya, while Kimi Raikkonen signs for McLaren to make it an all-Finn McLaren. Not that it helps against Schumacher's F2002.

Hakkinen retires after 2002, and is replaced at McLaren by Jenson Button, and both McLarens and both Williams put up a tremendous fight against Schumacher's Ferrari, with Raikkonen being the one to finally overthrow the German. Who promptly takes the crown back in 2004. 2005 sees Fernando Alonso surge to the front of the pack in his Renault, with Heidfeld and Montoya's Williams' his closest competitiors, but they can't beat Alonso, who goes on to take a second title from Schumacher in 2006. McLaren are a bit at odds as BMW's engines are a bit lacking, but they agree to redouble their efforts for 2007.

Schumacher retires after 2006, with Kimi Raikkonen coming in to replace him, paired with Felipe Massa. At Williams, Montoya leaves following a winless season, seeing Robert Kubica moving up from a superb debut season with Sauber to partner Nick Heidfeld. McLaren are still holding on to Jenson Button, with fellow Brit Lewis Hamilton making his debut alongside him for 2007. The 6 drivers put in stellar performances throughout the season to all battle for the championship, but the weakness of the BMW engine and Kubica's inexperience mean it's down to Heidfeld against the 2 Ferrari's come Interlagos. The German leads lights to flag and seals his first world championship.

In 2008, BMW has its engine issues licked, and with McLaren's strong design team, its an in-house duel between Button and Hamilton for the title, with Button winning in 2008. Massa puts up a decent fight, but his Ferrari turns out to be no match. In 2009, the field is shocked as out of the blue, Rubens Barrichello wins 6 of the first 7 races in an unsponsored car, and takes the title from perennial midfielders Red Bull. After a fruitless 2009, and seeing that they have already won a championship, and that a recession is under way, BMW pull out of F1, leaving McLaren to hastily sign up for customer Renault engines. Admist all this, Barrichello takes pole and wins the Brazilian GP that year, emotionally sealing the title in a show of waterworks easily eclipsing that of Hockenheim 2000, as Barrichello announces his immediate retirement.

In 2010, Mercedes take over Brawn, with Heidfeld moving over from Williams to partner Nico Rosberg. Kubica becomes Williams' focus, partntered with none other than Kamui Kobayashi, as Frank takes a shine to the fighty Japanese driver. Raikkonen leaves Ferrari for the WRC, with Fernando Alonso replacing him, eager to fight it out at the front again. Button and Hamilton remain at McLaren, while Vettel and Webber are ready to make a proper challenge for the title. The championship is one for the history books, although there is a little disappointment as it turns out Mercedes' car isn't quite up to scratch. The Red Bulls and McLarens are left to duke it out for the Constructors' title as Kobayashi is a little inconsistent, but does put in one hell of a drive to win the Japanese Grand Prix, while Massa has not recovered from his injury. However, it does mean that Kubica and Alonso have their teams wholly behind them, and they are the main championship protagonists, although Vettel, Webber, and Hamilton were also in the hunt. Kubica won out, however, with a gutsy drive from pole to win. Vettel, predictably, thrashes the field in 2011, but with Red Bull's car not quite up to scratch again, it could be anyone's title in 2012.

Here's a list of champions, in case you got a little lost there (I know I did):
1988: Nigel Mansell (Williams)/Williams
1989: Nigel Mansell (Williams)/Williams
1990: Nigel Mansell (Williams)/Williams
1991: Ayrton Senna (McLaren)/McLaren
1992: Alain Prost (McLaren)/McLaren
1993: Ayrton Senna (McLaren)/McLaren
1994: Ayrton Senna (McLaren)/Benetton
1995: Alain Prost (Benetton)/Benetton
1996: Mika Hakkinen (McLaren)/McLaren
1997: Mika Hakkinen (McLaren)/McLaren
1998: Damon Hill (Williams)/Williams
1999: Damon Hill (Williams)/Ferrari
2000: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)/Ferrari
2001: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)/Ferrari
2002: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)/Ferrari
2003: Kimi Raikkonen (McLaren)/McLaren
2004: Michael Schumacher (Ferrari)/Ferrari
2005: Fernando Alonso (Renault)/Renault
2006: Fernando Alonso (Renault)/Renault
2007: Nick Heidfeld (Williams)/Ferrari
2008: Jenson Button (McLaren)/McLaren
2009: Rubens Barrichello (Brawn)/Brawn
2010: Robert Kubica (Williams)/Red Bull
2011: Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull)/Red Bull

That went on for quite a bit longer than I thought it would. Anyway, expanding on your 'What If?', what if, instead of Honda supplying Williams over McLaren, they just dropped support for Lotus and supported both Williams and McLaren instead? And, for interest's sake, let's say Rosberg is also still at Williams.

[ibsey]

Here's one that has just popped into my head...

What if Hakkinen couldn't have driven again after his 1995 accident at Adelaide 1995?

Who would have won the 1998 & 1999 WDC's?

[Wizzie]

Here's one that has just popped into my head...

What if Hakkinen couldn't have driven again after his 1995 accident at Adelaide 1995?

Who would have won the 1998 & 1999 WDC's?

I'd imagine that Jan Magnussen would be brought in as his replacement with either him or DC winning in 1998 and Frentzen somehow doing the impossible and winning in 99.

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

Here's one that has just popped into my head...

What if Hakkinen couldn't have driven again after his 1995 accident at Adelaide 1995?

Who would have won the 1998 & 1999 WDC's?

It depends on who would have taken his place at McLaren. Assuming that this driver would have not been able to fight for the championship and would have had a second-driver status (or at least a second-driver performance), probably 1998 WDC would have been Schumacher or Coulthard, and probably Coulthard in 1999. But anyway, if Hakkinen would have not raced anymore after 1995, McLaren could have signed another driver with good performance in the following years (as Schumacher or Hill, for instance), who could have won world championship in 1998 and 1999.

[dr-baker]

So people think that whoever took Hakkinen's seat would have beaten Irvine in 1999? After all, Irvine managed to beat DC that year...

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

So people think that whoever took Hakkinen's seat would have beaten Irvine in 1999? After all, Irvine managed to beat DC that year...

But if Hakkinen hadn't been racing in 1999, probably DC (if he had a not so competitive team-mate) could have won the races that Hakkinen won in reality too, don't you think? So, if Hakkinen's place would have been taken by a not competitive driver, probably it would have been Coulthard McLaren's top driver.

[dr-baker]

So people think that whoever took Hakkinen's seat would have beaten Irvine in 1999? After all, Irvine managed to beat DC that year...

But if Hakkinen hadn't been racing in 1999, probably DC (if he had a not so competitive team-mate) could have won the races that Hakkinen won in reality too, don't you think? So, if Hakkinen's place would have been taken by a not competitive driver, probably it would have been Coulthard McLaren's top driver.

Yeah, maybe. And perhaps if DC had been a team leader at that point, perhaps he might have done slightly better. Who knows?

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

So people think that whoever took Hakkinen's seat would have beaten Irvine in 1999? After all, Irvine managed to beat DC that year...

But if Hakkinen hadn't been racing in 1999, probably DC (if he had a not so competitive team-mate) could have won the races that Hakkinen won in reality too, don't you think? So, if Hakkinen's place would have been taken by a not competitive driver, probably it would have been Coulthard McLaren's top driver.

Yeah, maybe. And perhaps if DC had been a team leader at that point, perhaps he might have done slightly better. Who knows?

It's possible. He wasn't so bad in his McLaren times.

[FantometteBR]

What if Wolf and Williams kind of partnership had succeeded?

[FMecha]

Finally!

... what if, instead of Honda supplying Williams over McLaren, they just dropped support for Lotus and supported both Williams and McLaren instead? And, for interest's sake, let's say Rosberg is also still at Williams.

Nakajima would move to Williams and Mansell would go to Ferrari a year early. So, Alboreto is at Lotus, now running Ford engine (1987 Benetton spec, turbocharged) and with Patrese. The season would be less boring with some wins for Williams, but it is still a victory for Senna and McLaren. Nakajima became 1988 DBTMOTR candidate.

So:

McLaren-Honda: Senna, Prost
Williams-Honda: Piquet, Nakajima
Ferrari: Mansell, Berger
Lotus-Ford: Alboreto, Patrese

Related: What if Brabham competed in 1988 season?

[Wizzie]

Finally!

... what if, instead of Honda supplying Williams over McLaren, they just dropped support for Lotus and supported both Williams and McLaren instead? And, for interest's sake, let's say Rosberg is also still at Williams.

Nakajima would move to Williams and Mansell would go to Ferrari a year early. So, Alboreto is at Lotus, now running Ford engine (1987 Benetton spec, turbocharged) and with Patrese. The season would be less boring with some wins for Williams, but it is still a victory for Senna and McLaren. Nakajima became 1988 DBTMOTR candidate.

So:

McLaren-Honda: Senna, Prost
Williams-Honda: Piquet, Nakajima
Ferrari: Mansell, Berger
Lotus-Ford: Alboreto, Patrese

Related: What if Brabham competed in 1988 season?

Actually, according to Nigel Mansell on Sky earlier today, Honda left Williams because Piquet decided to jump ship so where Nakajima ended up probably would have been relatively inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

[James1978]

I always thought it was the two Brazilians AND Nakajima that Honda had to have in one of their cars; Mansell and Prost were the drivers who just happened to be there at the right time!

[DOSBoot]

What if Henri Toivonen, and Sergio Cresto, had not been killed at the 1986 Tour de Course Rally?

[Faustus]

What if Henri Toivonen, and Sergio Cresto, had not been killed at the 1986 Tour de Course Rally?

They might have won the 1986 World Rally championship, considering that Markku Alen almost did (he actually was champion for a few days) and that Toivonen wasn't far behind Alen and Kankkunen in the championship. Then again, the 205 Turbo 16 Evo 2 was easily a match for the Delta S4 and possibly superior in the 2nd half of the championship and Toivonen was never considered a particularly reliable driver, so he might not have won it.
Group B would have been banned regardless.

[FMecha]

Group B would have been banned regardless.

Would Group S took off in 1987 then?

[Faustus]

Group B would have been banned regardless.

Would Group S took off in 1987 then?

Well pointed out FMecha. What I meant to say was that Group B and it's evolution, Group S, would have been discontinued and Group A regulations would have been implemented for 1987, as we know they were.

[ibsey]

Whislt on the subject of Group B (something I just adore almost as much as F1). I recently learnt Ferrari had developed a car (the 288 GTO) with the intenion to enter it in Group B. However Group B was banned before they could.

Therefore anyone care to mention what if Ferrari had indeed entered into the world of rallying? Could they have succeeded & would they still want to be in rallying after the golden age of Group B had ended?

[This]

Whislt on the subject of Group B (something I just adore almost as much as F1). I recently learnt Ferrari had developed a car (the 288 GTO) with the intenion to enter it in Group B. However Group B was banned before they could.

Therefore anyone care to mention what if Ferrari had indeed entered into the world of rallying? Could they have succeeded & would they still want to be in rallying after the golden age of Group B had ended?

That was only planned for asphalt tracks, nevertheless it would have been very interesting too watch. Probably we'd have seen a Ferrari-Porsche battle in some rallys. That would have been huge for the popularity of rally.

[LellaLombardi]

I'm surprised this hasn't been asked yet, so I've joined especially to ask it!

Frentzen said recently he was offered the Williams seat after Senna died, but turned it down out of loyalty to Sauber. What if he had taken that seat?

[Wizzie]

I'm surprised this hasn't been asked yet, so I've joined especially to ask it!

Frentzen said recently he was offered the Williams seat after Senna died, but turned it down out of loyalty to Sauber. What if he had taken that seat?

Probably much the same as what happened when he eventually joined in 1997 (I.e. been demolished by his teammate and confirmed his status as a Fisichellitis sufferer). Although, I would've been happy to have him prove me wrong.

[JeremyMcClean]

I'm surprised this hasn't been asked yet, so I've joined especially to ask it!

Frentzen said recently he was offered the Williams seat after Senna died, but turned it down out of loyalty to Sauber. What if he had taken that seat?

Probably much the same as what happened when he eventually joined in 1997 (I.e. been demolished by his teammate and confirmed his status as a Fisichellitis sufferer). Although, I would've been happy to have him prove me wrong.

No, I think he would have contended for the championship but wouldn't have won it. He still goes to Jordan, but in 1997 instead.

Here's another question:
On Olivier Panis' wiki page it says "Panis was a consideration to drive for Williams, a team that was in a state of flux at the time, but turned it down to test for McLaren." So what if he took that position at Williams?

[Wizzie]

Here's another question:
On Olivier Panis' wiki page it says "Panis was a consideration to drive for Williams, a team that was in a state of flux at the time, but turned it down to test for McLaren." So what if he took that position at Williams?

The part in bold pretty much answers your question sadly as this would have all been after his enormous Canada shunt (which means, he probably would have been trounced by Schumacher). Had he never had that crash however... who knows what he could have achieved given a competitive car like the 2001 or 2002 Williams.

[JeremyMcClean]

Here's another one:

What if BMW didn't pull out after 2009?

[LellaLombardi]

Well we wouldn't have had Peter Sauber back, I doubt we would have had Perez (remember he was thought of as little more than a pay driver to bankroll Sauber who were in desperate need) and I doubt Monisha Kalternborn would be the first female F1 boss.

[shinji]

Good one: what if Bernie Ecclestone had, instead of getting involved in F1, become a slimy used car salesman?

[Faustus]

Well we wouldn't have had Peter Sauber back, I doubt we would have had Perez (remember he was thought of as little more than a pay driver to bankroll Sauber who were in desperate need) and I doubt Monisha Kalternborn would be the first female F1 boss.

I agree with Peter Sauber bit and the Monisha Kalternborn, but not Perez. He was already a Ferrari Development Driver before he signed for Sauber and it was only a question of time before he got to Formula 1.

[Faustus]

Good one: what if Bernie Ecclestone had, instead of getting involved in F1, become a slimy used car salesman?

He woud have become the most successful used car salesman in the country, if not the world. Ever.

[JeremyMcClean]

Good one: what if Bernie Ecclestone had, instead of getting involved in F1, become a slimy used car salesman?

He woud have become the most successful used car salesman in the country, if not the world. Ever.

And Brabham wouldn't make it past the 70's.

[mario]

Good one: what if Bernie Ecclestone had, instead of getting involved in F1, become a slimy used car salesman?

He woud have become the most successful used car salesman in the country, if not the world. Ever.

And Brabham wouldn't make it past the 70's.

Given that he and Genii were linked with a takeover of Saab back in 2010, he may have even made the step from car salesman to manufacturing cars in his own right. And I agree that Brabham might not have survived past the 1970's if Bernie hadn't bought the team - Ron Tauranac was uncertain that he could afford the cost of running the team - which begs the question of whether or not Alfa Romeo would ever have returned to the sport if Brabham had ceased to exist in the early 1970's.

[JeremyMcClean]

Another one:

What if Alain Prost didn't gave his late-season meltdown with Ferrari in 1991?

[AdrianSutil]

Well we wouldn't have had Peter Sauber back, I doubt we would have had Perez (remember he was thought of as little more than a pay driver to bankroll Sauber who were in desperate need) and I doubt Monisha Kalternborn would be the first female F1 boss.

I agree with Peter Sauber bit and the Monisha Kalternborn, but not Perez. He was already a Ferrari Development Driver before he signed for Sauber and it was only a question of time before he got to Formula 1.

Wouldn't have seen him at BMW though. Ferrari don't have any affiliates with any other teams do they? You have Red Bull sending young drivers to HRT before, McLaren tie-up with Marussia, Mercedes and Force India are close thanks to Di Resta but Ferrari stand alone. So I don't know where Perez wouldve got his break as early as he did.

[Wizzie]

Well we wouldn't have had Peter Sauber back, I doubt we would have had Perez (remember he was thought of as little more than a pay driver to bankroll Sauber who were in desperate need) and I doubt Monisha Kalternborn would be the first female F1 boss.

I agree with Peter Sauber bit and the Monisha Kalternborn, but not Perez. He was already a Ferrari Development Driver before he signed for Sauber and it was only a question of time before he got to Formula 1.

Wouldn't have seen him at BMW though. Ferrari don't have any affiliates with any other teams do they? You have Red Bull sending young drivers to HRT before, McLaren tie-up with Marussia, Mercedes and Force India are close thanks to Di Resta but Ferrari stand alone. So I don't know where Perez wouldve got his break as early as he did.

Maybe he would have gotten a shot at Williams. I mean, being financed by the richest man in the world must be worth something to Sir Frank and co

[James1978]

Another one:

What if Alain Prost didn't gave his late-season meltdown with Ferrari in 1991?

He'd have stayed with Ferrari for 1992 and done about as good as Alesi did, but failed to win a race, I still reckon he'd have got the Williams seat in 1993 and everything else the same except Capelli would have stayed at a midfield team and have had his reputation intact.

[ibsey]

A couple more worth a ponder...

What if Reutemann hadn't mysteriously quit after the 1st race in 1982 (where he finished 2nd). Could he have won the WDC as Keke Rosberg did in the same car?

What if the 107% rule hadn't been introduced in 1996? Would Forti have survived beyond they did? Also would we have seen more 'reject' teams completing in F1 in the late 90's as a result?


(apologies if these have already been asked)

[pasta_maldonado]

A couple more worth a ponder...

What if Reutemann hadn't mysteriously quit after the 1st race in 1982 (where he finished 2nd). Could he have won the WDC as Keke Rosberg did in the same car?)

If he had been as consistent as Keke, and had he not be plagued with reliability problems, I think he would have won the world championship. If he stayed on with Williams for '83, he would have endured a quite rubbish season in comparison to '82 (the '83 Williams didn't set the world alight after all). Maybe finish around 4th or 5th in the drivers championship, with one or two wins. He would probably retire after a somewhat dissapointing '83, but if he continued he might have gone to Ferrari in '84 in place of Michele Alboreto had they been impressed with his performances

What if the 107% rule hadn't been introduced in 1996? Would Forti have survived beyond they did? Also would we have seen more 'reject' teams completing in F1 in the late 90's as a result?

Forti might have survived to the end of 1996, with their place on the grid guarranteed, but this wouldn't bring them much more money so the deal with the shady Shannon might have still gone ahead. There would definately be more reject teams competing, to a point whre the 107% rule or something similar would be invented to keep down the lack of talent/amount of entries. It would have made it easier for anyone with money to set up a team, attract some sponsors, pick the worst out of F3000 and some pay drivers, and be guarranteed a spot on the grid as well. These teams would go belly up sonn after soon though as the exposure from poodling around at the back of the grid about 10 seconds of the pace of Mika Hakkinen wouldn't attract much exposure for the limited sponsors, so the moneey would dry up . Unless they hired Jean-Denis Deletraz to weave infront of the leaders.

[JeremyMcClean]

Another one:

What if Alain Prost didn't gave his late-season meltdown with Ferrari in 1991?

He'd have stayed with Ferrari for 1992 and done about as good as Alesi did, but failed to win a race, I still reckon he'd have got the Williams seat in 1993 and everything else the same except Capelli would have stayed at a midfield team and have had his reputation intact.

Hmm, could Capelli have done something meaningful in F1 past Leyton House then?

[James1978]

Another one:

What if Alain Prost didn't gave his late-season meltdown with Ferrari in 1991?

He'd have stayed with Ferrari for 1992 and done about as good as Alesi did, but failed to win a race, I still reckon he'd have got the Williams seat in 1993 and everything else the same except Capelli would have stayed at a midfield team and have had his reputation intact.

Hmm, could Capelli have done something meaningful in F1 past Leyton House then?

March would most likely have still had Wendlinger and a pay driver in the other seat - I reckon he might have gone to Jordan instead of his former teammate Gugelmin, and could have done better early 1993 having been the team's incumbent. But Rubens would have had the better of him eventually. Boutsen wouldn't have made his comeback but I still reckon they'd have taken Irvine at the end of the year and the rest as is.

[LellaLombardi]

Talking of Wendlinger....what if he hadn't had his awful smash at Monaco? (apologies if already done)