What If?

[JeremyMcClean]

Talking of Wendlinger....what if he hadn't had his awful smash at Monaco? (apologies if already done)

I don't think that has been done yet... I don't know much about Wendlinger but I would assume he would be slightly better, though I think he wouldn't be a championship contender or something like that. Humour me if you want, but I think he might have been with Williams during their downturn in 1999, maybe 2000. That would have been interesting.

[David AGS]

Apparently Capelli was speaking to Dallara/Scuderia Italia for 1992, I think on the basis it was as close that he will get to being involved with Ferrari (they supplied the customer V12 engines).

So that would probably have meant Martini would have stayed with Minardi. Fittipaldi would have been his teammate, but where would Morbidelli be?

My take, Morbidelli would step aside for a year and then sign with Footwork alongside Suzuki for 1993. Warwick does not come back.

[James1978]

Apparently Capelli was speaking to Dallara/Scuderia Italia for 1992, I think on the basis it was as close that he will get to being involved with Ferrari (they supplied the customer V12 engines).

So that would probably have meant Martini would have stayed with Minardi. Fittipaldi would have been his teammate, but where would Morbidelli be?

My take, Morbidelli would step aside for a year and then sign with Footwork alongside Suzuki for 1993. Warwick does not come back.

I agree that all seems to fit very well. Morbidelli would have probably stayed Ferrari tester in 1992 actually.

[David AGS]

Thats true. I forgot that the late Alboreto was at Footwork in 1992. Yeah, perharps he would have stayed at Ferrari as a tester. But they already had Larini on the books didnt they (mabe not at that time though!).

Another what if...

What would have happened if Adrian Newey stayed at Williams for 1998. Would they have been more successful in that season?

Also in 1998, would McLaren be as successful if they had stayed with Goodyear (instead of the late switch to Bridgestone)?

What would have happened if Pacific GP found a big backer and competed in the 1996 season powered by Judd engines?

[Wizzie]

What would have happened if Adrian Newey stayed at Williams for 1998. Would they have been more successful in that season?

Since the Renault engine was no slouch in a straight line, despite being a year old design, one would be safe to assume that Williams would have had a much better year.

[Faustus]

What would have happened if Pacific GP found a big backer and competed in the 1996 season powered by Judd engines?

With Judd engines? They would have been old engines, because Judd was working with Yamaha on their engine, so that wouldn't have helped much, so in all likelihood it would have been another season of rejectdom. Considering all of the customer engines available at the time, basically the Ford EDM or the older-spec Zetec, they would have struggled with whichever engine they used. The chassis was decent but let down by simple aerodynamics and it is unlikely that they could have employed a decent driver, so probably another bad season.

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

What would have happened if Pacific GP found a big backer and competed in the 1996 season powered by Judd engines?

With Judd engines? They would have been old engines, because Judd was working with Yamaha on their engine, so that wouldn't have helped much, so in likelihood another season of rejectdom. Considering all of the customer engines available at the time, basically the Ford EDM or the older-spec Zetec, they would have struggled with whichever engine they used. The chassis was decent but lack down by the simple aerodynamics and it is unlikely that they could have employed a decent driver, so probably another bad season.

I agree, I don't think that they could had really better results if they competed in 1996 too.
But it would have been great to have Pacific cars on the grid for a third season (or a second, because I don't remember Pacific on the grid in their first season except a few times).

[MansellsEyebrows]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but what If BMW had kept Vettel after Red Bull/Toro Rosso came knocking in 2007? would he have been a double world champion yet?

I'd have thought he would have got a first team drive at BMW Sauber in 2008 (alongside Kubica), and got at least one win that year. He may have even got a win out of that rather average 2009 BMW machine, before possibly joining Mercedes in 2010 as they were essentially the defending world champions, meaning it was an attractive proposition for the up and coming star, especially alongside Schumacher. The mystery would then be who would have been at Red Bull for 2009-2012. Maybe Kubica from 2010 onwards? or maybe Rosberg?

[BlindCaveSalamander]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but what If BMW had kept Vettel after Red Bull/Toro Rosso came knocking in 2007? would he have been a double world champion yet?

I'd have thought he would have got a first team drive at BMW Sauber in 2008 (alongside Kubica), and got at least one win that year. He may have even got a win out of that rather average 2009 BMW machine, before possibly joining Mercedes in 2010 as they were essentially the defending world champions, meaning it was an attractive proposition for the up and coming star, especially alongside Schumacher. The mystery would then be who would have been at Red Bull for 2009-2012. Maybe Kubica from 2010 onwards? or maybe Rosberg?

I'm pretty sure Vettel was on loan to BMW at the time, actually. But clearly Kubica would've gone to Red Bull. And then thrashed the field every year.

[dr-baker]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but what If BMW had kept Vettel after Red Bull/Toro Rosso came knocking in 2007? would he have been a double world champion yet?

I'd have thought he would have got a first team drive at BMW Sauber in 2008 (alongside Kubica), and got at least one win that year. He may have even got a win out of that rather average 2009 BMW machine, before possibly joining Mercedes in 2010 as they were essentially the defending world champions, meaning it was an attractive proposition for the up and coming star, especially alongside Schumacher. The mystery would then be who would have been at Red Bull for 2009-2012. Maybe Kubica from 2010 onwards? or maybe Rosberg?

I'm pretty sure Vettel was on loan to BMW at the time, actually. But clearly Kubica would've gone to Red Bull. And then thrashed the field every year.

I thought that Vettel had been brought through the ranks by both BMW and Red Bull - the BMW funding coming via Vettel's Formula BMW success...

[pasta_maldonado]

What would happen if the FIA didn't ban six wheelers? As far as I can remember Williams had develped a system which they claimed to improve traction

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

What would happen if the FIA didn't ban six wheelers? As far as I can remember Williams had develped a system which they claimed to improve traction

Probably there would have been some other teams developping six wheels cars, but I don't think it would have lasted for a long time. They would have been back to four wheels cars a few years later, in my opinion.

[Faustus]

What would happen if the FIA didn't ban six wheelers? As far as I can remember Williams had develped a system which they claimed to improve traction

Probably there would have been some other teams developping six wheels cars, but I don't think it would have lasted for a long time. They would have been back to four wheels cars a few years later, in my opinion.

The Williams sytem was far superior to the Tyrrell, the March and the one that Ferrari tested (which was illegal anyway, it was just an experiment). 4 front-tyre-sized driven wheels on the back both improved traction and aerodynamics, despite the added complexity and weight of the 2 differentials. Cornering speeds would have gone up, despite the ban on sliding skirts and it would have been easier for turbo-engined cars to put down their insane power. There probably would have been more development into advanced materials in an attempt to counter the added weight.
In short, the turbo arms race would have been magnified. I think sooner or later every team would have developed their own 6-wheel car, until the FIA sooner or later would step in and ban anything other than 4 wheels.

[dr-baker]

What would happen if the FIA didn't ban six wheelers? As far as I can remember Williams had develped a system which they claimed to improve traction

Probably there would have been some other teams developping six wheels cars, but I don't think it would have lasted for a long time. They would have been back to four wheels cars a few years later, in my opinion.

The Williams sytem was far superior to the Tyrrell, the March and the one that Ferrari tested (which was illegal anyway, it was just an experiment). 4 front-tyre-sized driven wheels on the back both improved traction and aerodynamics, despite the added complexity and weight of the 2 differentials. Cornering speeds would have gone up, despite the ban on sliding skirts and it would have been easier for turbo-engined cars to put down their insane power. There probably would have been more development into advanced materials in an attempt to counter the added weight.
In short, the turbo arms race would have been magnified. I think sooner or later every team would have developed their own 6-wheel car, until the FIA sooner or later would step in and ban anything other than 4 wheels.

With four tyres delivering the power rather than just two (I assume the Williams and March were 4-wheel drive?). would this have reduced tyre degradation somewhat, having half the power and torque being delivered through each wheel?

[Faustus]

The Williams sytem was far superior to the Tyrrell, the March and the one that Ferrari tested (which was illegal anyway, it was just an experiment). 4 front-tyre-sized driven wheels on the back both improved traction and aerodynamics, despite the added complexity and weight of the 2 differentials. Cornering speeds would have gone up, despite the ban on sliding skirts and it would have been easier for turbo-engined cars to put down their insane power. There probably would have been more development into advanced materials in an attempt to counter the added weight.
In short, the turbo arms race would have been magnified. I think sooner or later every team would have developed their own 6-wheel car, until the FIA sooner or later would step in and ban anything other than 4 wheels.

With four tyres delivering the power rather than just two (I assume the Williams and March were 4-wheel drive?). would this have reduced tyre degradation somewhat, having half the power and torque being delivered through each wheel?

Yes, to an extent. The added grip would have been pretty crazy, what with at least 1.5 times the contact patch. Maybe refuelling wouldn't have been banned immediately as well.
Can you imagine a wing car, albeit without sliding skirts, with 6 wheels, double-chassis like the Lotus 88, turbo engine, refuelling and possibly the Lotus active suspension? Insane!

[pasta_maldonado]

It'd be a magnificent sight if the 6 wheeled concept hadn't been banned by the time electronic aids had been developed the cars would have been amazing

[mario]

The Williams sytem was far superior to the Tyrrell, the March and the one that Ferrari tested (which was illegal anyway, it was just an experiment). 4 front-tyre-sized driven wheels on the back both improved traction and aerodynamics, despite the added complexity and weight of the 2 differentials. Cornering speeds would have gone up, despite the ban on sliding skirts and it would have been easier for turbo-engined cars to put down their insane power. There probably would have been more development into advanced materials in an attempt to counter the added weight.
In short, the turbo arms race would have been magnified. I think sooner or later every team would have developed their own 6-wheel car, until the FIA sooner or later would step in and ban anything other than 4 wheels.

With four tyres delivering the power rather than just two (I assume the Williams and March were 4-wheel drive?). would this have reduced tyre degradation somewhat, having half the power and torque being delivered through each wheel?

Yes, to an extent. The added grip would have been pretty crazy, what with at least 1.5 times the contact patch. Maybe refuelling wouldn't have been banned immediately as well.
Can you imagine a wing car, albeit without sliding skirts, with 6 wheels, double-chassis like the Lotus 88, turbo engine, refuelling and possibly the Lotus active suspension? Insane!

As I understand the situation, not only would there have been the considerable gain in rear traction via the increased contact patch, but Williams were also exploiting an ambiguity in the rules over the design of the floor for an aero gain - in fact, I think that the potential aero gain was as much of an incentive as the increased contact patch, if not more so.

The trick was that the regulations at the time meant that the sculpted underfloor had to end at the rear axle line - in this case, Williams realised they could extend the tunnels out to the second rearmost axle, and their initial tests suggested that they were gaining about 30% more downforce over the standard FW08. That in itself is the sort of gain in performance that most aerodynamicists would dream about - added to the increased rear traction, and you'd have had a very impressive car.
Mind you, as Sunshine_Baby_[IT] points out, I doubt that they would have allowed six wheeled cars for long - the potential increase in cornering performance might well have been too much for the authorities to stomach, especially if you were to add a turbo engine into the mix.

[Faustus]

Yes, to an extent. The added grip would have been pretty crazy, what with at least 1.5 times the contact patch. Maybe refuelling wouldn't have been banned immediately as well.
Can you imagine a wing car, albeit without sliding skirts, with 6 wheels, double-chassis like the Lotus 88, turbo engine, refuelling and possibly the Lotus active suspension? Insane!

As I understand the situation, not only would there have been the considerable gain in rear traction via the increased contact patch, but Williams were also exploiting an ambiguity in the rules over the design of the floor for an aero gain - in fact, I think that the potential aero gain was as much of an incentive as the increased contact patch, if not more so.

The trick was that the regulations at the time meant that the sculpted underfloor had to end at the rear axle line - in this case, Williams realised they could extend the tunnels out to the second rearmost axle, and their initial tests suggested that they were gaining about 30% more downforce over the standard FW08. That in itself is the sort of gain in performance that most aerodynamicists would dream about - added to the increased rear traction, and you'd have had a very impressive car.
Mind you, as Sunshine_Baby_[IT] points out, I doubt that they would have allowed six wheeled cars for long - the potential increase in cornering performance might well have been too much for the authorities to stomach, especially if you were to add a turbo engine into the mix.

Very good point mario! I forgot about that rule! This could also have had some interesting consequences when sculpted underfloors were banned for 1983. The diffuser was allowed from the rear axle line back, so if you take the furthest-front (sorry, I've got a headache and I can't think of a more apt term to describe what I mean) as your reference point, you could have a much larger diffuser, with far greater aerodynamic effect.
I think I'm right in saying that we can agree that the ban on 6-wheel cars was bound to happen sooner or later.

[Ferrarist]

Here's a (in my opinion) good one:

What if Benetton got Jaguar V12s for 1995, while Lola inherited the Ford Zetec-Rs for 1995, and started a quasi-works Ford team (two years before Ford supported Stewart BTW)? Also, Sauber got the Zetecs in real life, here they might have gotten the Ford EDs, which Minardi, Simtek, Pacific and Forti had in '95.

[David AGS]

The Jaguar V-12 brought a lot of power, but was heavy and thirsty. Known to have a few engine failures at the start, but Jaguar engineers cut back power to solve these issues. Schumacher wins 5 races, Herbert 1, but the Renault engine is far superior, and the Williams record the double. Hill wins championship by 35 points over Schumacher, Coulthard is 3rd, Herbert 4th. Schumacher joins Ferrari at end of season.


To Lola. Allan McNish driver for Lola, alongside Christian Fittipaldi, who does sign a deal to be at CART, but then has a last minute change of heart and joins the team.
They do score a a few points, finish 6th and 7th, but dont perform well enough to retain Ford Cosworth deal. Lola use older Ford engines, and fall down to the back of the grid, and close its doors in 1999, after a Nigerian Prince buys the team promising big things but brings no money.

The works Ford engines go to a new team in Stewart Grand Prix.

Sauber use Ford ED engines until 1996, before taking a punt with customer Ferrari engines.

Ive read that Forti had a better spec engine in 1995 than the others. Im not 100%, but Ford of Brazil were involved somehow.
Probably cause they had more cash than the others.

[dr-baker]

To Lola. Allan McNish driver for Lola, alongside Christian Fittipaldi, who does sign a deal to be at CART, but then has a last minute change of heart and joins the team.
They do score a a few points, finish 6th and 7th, but dont perform well enough to retain Ford Cosworth deal. Lola use older Ford engines, and fall down to the back of the grid, and close its doors in 1999, after a Nigerian Prince buys the team promising big things but brings no money.

You seem to have forgotten about the Al Mellling engine that Lola had commissioned for use later in the 1997 season (or possibly 1998). Do you think that this just would never have got off the ground? After all, I suppose that it never did get completed or ever installed into an F1 car (unless Zoran Stefanovic bought those too?)

[midgrid]

What would happen if the FIA didn't ban six wheelers? As far as I can remember Williams had develped a system which they claimed to improve traction

Probably there would have been some other teams developping six wheels cars, but I don't think it would have lasted for a long time. They would have been back to four wheels cars a few years later, in my opinion.

The Williams sytem was far superior to the Tyrrell, the March and the one that Ferrari tested (which was illegal anyway, it was just an experiment). 4 front-tyre-sized driven wheels on the back both improved traction and aerodynamics, despite the added complexity and weight of the 2 differentials. Cornering speeds would have gone up, despite the ban on sliding skirts and it would have been easier for turbo-engined cars to put down their insane power. There probably would have been more development into advanced materials in an attempt to counter the added weight.
In short, the turbo arms race would have been magnified. I think sooner or later every team would have developed their own 6-wheel car, until the FIA sooner or later would step in and ban anything other than 4 wheels.

An arms race in wheels?



The logical conclusion.

[pasta_maldonado]

An arms race in wheels?



The logical conclusion.

Or how about this, a photohack i (rather crappily) knocked up


A FW14/D?

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

Or how about this, a photohack i (rather crappily) knocked up


A FW14/D?

This photoshop is the second most shocking thing I have ever seen!
(the first one was clearly Ide driving in F1...)

[pasta_maldonado]

Shockingly awful, that is.

[Sunshine_Baby_[IT]]

Shockingly awful, that is.

I totally agree.

[midgrid]

An extra axle of active suspension for Riccardo to lack confidence in!

[JeremyMcClean]

An arms race in wheels?



The logical conclusion.

Or how about this, a photohack i (rather crappily) knocked up


A FW14/D?

If I didn't have Dan as my avatar I'd considered using one of the two mutli-wheeled cars as an avatar.

[FantometteBR]

Man, that's too much...well...my goodness...

[mario]

Yes, to an extent. The added grip would have been pretty crazy, what with at least 1.5 times the contact patch. Maybe refuelling wouldn't have been banned immediately as well.
Can you imagine a wing car, albeit without sliding skirts, with 6 wheels, double-chassis like the Lotus 88, turbo engine, refuelling and possibly the Lotus active suspension? Insane!

As I understand the situation, not only would there have been the considerable gain in rear traction via the increased contact patch, but Williams were also exploiting an ambiguity in the rules over the design of the floor for an aero gain - in fact, I think that the potential aero gain was as much of an incentive as the increased contact patch, if not more so.

The trick was that the regulations at the time meant that the sculpted underfloor had to end at the rear axle line - in this case, Williams realised they could extend the tunnels out to the second rearmost axle, and their initial tests suggested that they were gaining about 30% more downforce over the standard FW08. That in itself is the sort of gain in performance that most aerodynamicists would dream about - added to the increased rear traction, and you'd have had a very impressive car.
Mind you, as Sunshine_Baby_[IT] points out, I doubt that they would have allowed six wheeled cars for long - the potential increase in cornering performance might well have been too much for the authorities to stomach, especially if you were to add a turbo engine into the mix.

Very good point mario! I forgot about that rule! This could also have had some interesting consequences when sculpted underfloors were banned for 1983. The diffuser was allowed from the rear axle line back, so if you take the furthest-front (sorry, I've got a headache and I can't think of a more apt term to describe what I mean) as your reference point, you could have a much larger diffuser, with far greater aerodynamic effect.
I think I'm right in saying that we can agree that the ban on 6-wheel cars was bound to happen sooner or later.

True, which might well have boosted the competitiveness of Williams in 1983 - they would have had a considerable aero and mechanical grip advantage over their rivals, although whether that might have been enough to overturn the power advantage of their rivals (even with the tuned DFV they were using, they probably had a 100bhp deficit to the turbocharged teams) is something that will sadly remain unknown.

On another note

An extra axle of active suspension for Riccardo to lack confidence in!

That reminds me of another question - what if active suspension had been banned much earlier, say, back in the 1980's when Lotus first ran active suspension (albeit a much simpler system than the one Williams later developed)? I believe that one of the questions at the time over the legality of the 97T was the use of active suspension, although nobody protested that in the end.
One particular area that I would be interested in would be the impact that such a ban might have had on the success of Williams in the early 1990's - I believe that Adrian Newey admitted that Williams's active suspension system compensated heavily for the fact that the layout of the rear suspension had been compromised by the difficulties in packaging the much longer Renault V10 compared to the Judd V8 they'd used before. Would Williams have been quite as successful without active suspension?

[David AGS]

Im no tech expert,

but Williams still would have had ABS, traction control etc, so still would have been competitive.

The Renault V-10 was a beauty though. The V-12's were powerful, but heavy, thirsty, bigger, (therefore bigger radiators etc), the V-8's were lighter, fuel effiecient, potentially more reliable but less power which was crucial.

While the Renault V-10 was the perfect mix of all. The other team to run the V-10 around the same time was Ilmor, which was promising but didnt have the biggest budgets to spend, until Mercedes took over and invested a little bit. Similar to Mugen Honda.

But I guess, why did Honda stop developing the V-10 in 1990?

Either way, I think Williams would have been successful. Maybe not as dominant but still strong.

[DOSBoot]

What if Jean Alesi stuck with Tyrrell in 1991?

[David AGS]

Good question!

Alesi stays at Tyrrell in 1991, pre season reports of the team fighting for the championship, with Honda V-10's, Pirelli tyres, Braun backing etc. Team scores points at USA, and Canada, but Postlethwaite leaves mid season, development is halted, and team slips down table.

In reality nothing!

Tyrrell loose engines, and most backing, with Tyrrell have to look for drivers with backing.

But there are more questions, If Alesi stayed at Tyrrell, who would be at Ferrari in 1991? Nannini didnt want the drive, Modena?, Morbidelli? Capelli? Not sure.

[AdrianSutil]

Well if Alesi stayed at Tyrrell then Modena would be without a drive. Morbidelli was Ferrari's official tester so he'd probably get the nod. Andrea Montermini was also testing for the Scuderia, shouldve given him the drive

[Wizzie]

Two words: Pierluigi Martini

[JeremyMcClean]

Two words: Pierluigi Martini

Oh my! I hadn't thought of that

[David AGS]

Modena would have been at Brabham possibly...

[East Londoner]

What if the deathtrap that was the FIRST Racing car in 1989 had somehow managed to pass crash-testing? Would the consequences in a race not bear thinking about?

[FMecha]

What if the deathtrap that was the FIRST Racing car in 1989 had somehow managed to pass crash-testing? Would the consequences in a race not bear thinking about?

DNPQ in all races. That is all.

[Phoenix]

What if the deathtrap that was the FIRST Racing car in 1989 had somehow managed to pass crash-testing? Would the consequences in a race not bear thinking about?

DNPQ in all races. That is all.

Nah, it had a Judd engine. If Andrea Moda managed to qualify once, surely Tarquini could have dragged that thing onto the grid at least once.