The Formula 1 Rejects Teams Association (F1RTA) Thread

[Stramala]

I have an issue to discuss before the season ends: I´ve been checking the prize structure for F2RWRS and I find it far too generous (the winner bringing in 200 credits); I´d like to suggest the following:

A) F2RWRS Prize Structure as it follows:

Winner -- 75 cr.
2nd -- 50 cr.
3rd -- 25 cr.
4th and 5th -- 10 cr.

B) That those credits are counted towards the Pay Driver cap, even if the driver is not a Pay Driver.

C) That any of these drivers are assured to take in, at least, 8 F1RWRS events against a penalty of double the credits that driver brought.

Scuderia Alitalia agrees with point B, and point C on the provision than an injury and underperformance clause is written into the rules. We vote against point A.

[Wizzie]

I have an issue to discuss before the season ends: I´ve been checking the prize structure for F2RWRS and I find it far too generous (the winner bringing in 200 credits); I´d like to suggest the following:

A) F2RWRS Prize Structure as it follows:

Winner -- 75 cr.
2nd -- 50 cr.
3rd -- 25 cr.
4th and 5th -- 10 cr.

B) That those credits are counted towards the Pay Driver cap, even if the driver is not a Pay Driver.

C) That any of these drivers are assured to take in, at least, 8 F1RWRS events against a penalty of double the credits that driver brought.

Scuderia Alitalia agrees with point B, and point C on the provision than an injury and underperformance clause is written into the rules. We vote against point A.

Injury clause I completely agree with, however I'm undecided on an underperformance clause. Maybe it should be an all encompassing "exceptional circumstances" clause instead, like many of the other regulations on there.

EDIT: I found this in the F1RWRS regulations regarding point C:
4.4.7. Teams that circumvent Article 4.4.6. may be awarded a penalty in the form of credits unless exceptional circumstances apply.

It's already covered in there but what 'exceptional circumstances' may be is entirely up for debate

[Aerond]

I must insist again about the dangers of giving too much credits for nothing. 200 credits is a lot in the f1RWRS world and equals, for example, to a 20bhp upgrade, which can mean about 1 second per lap at an standard mileage track. I know you are against credit restriction rules but It's not logical I'm cutting drastically the prizes for teams and drivers and then a new driver enters and turns the ecosystem upside down because of a badly structured prize system which is supposed to be an extra (having in count that drivers earn experience points and in the case of F2RWRS drivers extra performance points)

[Stramala]

I must insist again about the dangers of giving too much credits for nothing. 200 credits is a lot in the f1RWRS world and equals, for example, to a 20bhp upgrade, which can mean about 1 second per lap at an standard mileage track. I know you are against credit restriction rules but It's not logical I'm cutting drastically the prizes for teams and drivers and then a new driver enters and turns the ecosystem upside down because of a badly structured prize system which is supposed to be an extra (having in count that drivers earn experience points and in the case of F2RWRS drivers extra performance points)

I agree as long as the rule isn't enforced until the start of the 2016 F2RWRS season.

[Wizzie]

I must insist again about the dangers of giving too much credits for nothing. 200 credits is a lot in the f1RWRS world and equals, for example, to a 20bhp upgrade, which can mean about 1 second per lap at an standard mileage track. I know you are against credit restriction rules but It's not logical I'm cutting drastically the prizes for teams and drivers and then a new driver enters and turns the ecosystem upside down because of a badly structured prize system which is supposed to be an extra (having in count that drivers earn experience points and in the case of F2RWRS drivers extra performance points)

I agree as long as the rule isn't enforced until the start of the 2016 F2RWRS season.

And how exactly is running the F2RWRS champion for 10 races any different from running a pay driver for 10 races and collecting the credits at the end of the 10 race period?

[the Masked Lapwing]

A) - HRT disagrees. Double the revised credits and it's fine.
B) - Agreed. Although what if the driver is a pay driver?
C) - Agreed. Clarification would be handy as to whether non-championship events count towards this limit, and HRT agrees with Scuderia Alitalia that an injury clause should be added (it's not the team's fault if a driver hurts himself), but not an underperformance clause.

[Aerond]

A) - HRT disagrees. Double the revised credits and it's fine.
B) - Agreed. Although what if the driver is a pay driver?
C) - Agreed. Clarification would be handy as to whether non-championship events count towards this limit, and HRT agrees with Scuderia Alitalia that an injury clause should be added (it's not the team's fault if a driver hurts himself), but not an underperformance clause.

B) If the driver is a pay driver, pay driver credits are also paid to the team every 4 races as usual. The F2RWRS credits are an extra on top of that. So both F2RWRS credits and Pay driver credits would count.
C) Agreed with that, but driver injuries would have to come from an accident during a race and the F1RWRS Commission, which is the only one who can actually watch the races, must decide if the accident is serious enough for an injury. Non
Championship events don't count, of course.

[the Masked Lapwing]

I've had an idea for an engine that I reckon should be added to the market for next year - the Coswojuddhartlambo V.4, the next version of the engine that Pacchia made famous. There's really no point to this, and it would likely be crap, I just thought it would be a good idea to celebrate one of the original teams of the F1RWRS

[eurobrun]

I've had an idea for an engine that I reckon should be added to the market for next year - the Coswojuddhartlambo V.4, the next version of the engine that Pacchia made famous. There's really no point to this, and it would likely be crap, I just thought it would be a good idea to celebrate one of the original teams of the F1RWRS

I second this.

[AndreaModa]

Right, so as far as I'm concerned, I believe the credits awarded to teams through the use of F2RWRS drivers should count towards the pay driver credit cap, which is 400 credits. The current system doesn't need to be changed. I also agree that the promoted driver must be run for a minimum of 10 races, otherwise a penalty of double the amount of credits the driver brought to the team should be levied. I also agree that should a driver not complete the mandatory 10 races in a season due to injury or death, then the penalty should not be applied. I do not agree about an underperformance clause though. Teams hire drivers at their own risk, knowing full well that drivers in lower classes can turn out to be flops when they hit the big time (we see it often enough in the real world). If they don't want to take that risk then they shouldn't be hiring rookies.

I also agree with bringing in the Coswojuddhartlambo V.4 as a bit of a nod to Pacchia, and it gives them a bit more history (say closing the team down to focus on engine development instead)

[JeremyMcClean]

I have an issue to discuss before the season ends: I´ve been checking the prize structure for F2RWRS and I find it far too generous (the winner bringing in 200 credits); I´d like to suggest the following:

A) F2RWRS Prize Structure as it follows:

Winner -- 75 cr.
2nd -- 50 cr.
3rd -- 25 cr.
4th and 5th -- 10 cr.

B) That those credits are counted towards the Pay Driver cap, even if the driver is not a Pay Driver.

C) That any of these drivers are assured to take in, at least, 8 F1RWRS events against a penalty of double the credits that driver brought.

Hmm,

A) No, it's a title of prestige and honour, why dumb down the prize money?
B) I wouldn't mind this, so sure.
C) This rule needs better explanation. So for now, no.

[Aerond]

I have an issue to discuss before the season ends: I´ve been checking the prize structure for F2RWRS and I find it far too generous (the winner bringing in 200 credits); I´d like to suggest the following:

A) F2RWRS Prize Structure as it follows:

Winner -- 75 cr.
2nd -- 50 cr.
3rd -- 25 cr.
4th and 5th -- 10 cr.

B) That those credits are counted towards the Pay Driver cap, even if the driver is not a Pay Driver.

C) That any of these drivers are assured to take in, at least, 8 F1RWRS events against a penalty of double the credits that driver brought.

Hmm,

A) No, it's a title of prestige and honour, why dumb down the prize money?
B) I wouldn't mind this, so sure.
C) This rule needs better explanation. So for now, no.

Again, guys, the 3rd driver in F1RWRS pays 180 credits. Give me a good reason why F2RWRS winner should earn more. 75 extra credits, which equals an important engine upgrade, is more than enough as an extra.

[JeremyMcClean]

I have an issue to discuss before the season ends: I´ve been checking the prize structure for F2RWRS and I find it far too generous (the winner bringing in 200 credits); I´d like to suggest the following:

A) F2RWRS Prize Structure as it follows:

Winner -- 75 cr.
2nd -- 50 cr.
3rd -- 25 cr.
4th and 5th -- 10 cr.

B) That those credits are counted towards the Pay Driver cap, even if the driver is not a Pay Driver.

C) That any of these drivers are assured to take in, at least, 8 F1RWRS events against a penalty of double the credits that driver brought.

Hmm,

A) No, it's a title of prestige and honour, why dumb down the prize money?
B) I wouldn't mind this, so sure.
C) This rule needs better explanation. So for now, no.

Again, guys, the 3rd driver in F1RWRS pays 180 credits. Give me a good reason why F2RWRS winner should earn more. 75 extra credits, which equals an important engine upgrade, is more than enough as an extra.

Uhh, because he won a bloody championship?

Even still, I will I change my vote to a yes for A)

[Klon]

Right, so as far as I'm concerned, I believe the credits awarded to teams through the use of F2RWRS drivers should count towards the pay driver credit cap, which is 400 credits.

I concur - to a point. Maybe we should not add all 200 credits, perhaps half of it would be a fair sum which would still make the awarded credits worth something because if we add all 200 to the cap you might as well take a pay driver which would kind of defeat the point of those price credits.

The current system doesn't need to be changed. I also agree that the promoted driver must be run for a minimum of 10 races, otherwise a penalty of double the amount of credits the driver brought to the team should be levied. I also agree that should a driver not complete the mandatory 10 races in a season due to injury or death, then the penalty should not be applied.

Didn't we already agree on this months ago?
Maybe we should actually write down things we want for F1RWRS, would make us slightly more useful than FOTA.

I also agree with bringing in the Coswojuddhartlambo V.4 as a bit of a nod to Pacchia, and it gives them a bit more history (say closing the team down to focus on engine development instead)

However if we do that the engine would have to be remotely competitive, just for historic value nobody is going to buy that thing - except for Shizuka maybe. Just kidding, of course.

[AdrianSutil]

With the prize money for winning the F2 Championship, why not release the credits in a sort of 'parachute payment'? Something like the team that takes the driver on recieves half the prize money for the first year (as long as he does at least 10 races), and the team then recieves the second half of the money the season after, even if that driver doesn't race or has moved to another team. That way, the team still gets all the prize money but not in one lump sum.

[Warren Hughes]

To go slightly against the grain, but having read and considered all the above arguments, Prospec supports the F1RWRS Commission on all points relating to F2RWRS prize money, on the basis that the award of credits for all reasons should be proportionate and in correspondence with the achievement upon which the award of credits is based.

Wow that was a long sentence!

Prospec also supports the addition of an 'exceptional circumstances' clause to point C where if necessary a vote of F1RTA members would determine what constitutes exceptional circumstances.

[Phoenix]

I think the most rational option is to award the credits Aerond proposed for feeder series drivers being promoted to F1RWRS.

[Wizzie]

Whilst that debate is going on, MRT would like to raise the minor issue about test drivers. For ease of nominating official reserve drivers, MRT proposes that for any team, at least one of their test drivers should either hold a valid super license or be eligible for one. The majority of the teams meet that requirement anyway but making it official will just make it easier for team owners to have ready-made replacements should the need arise.

EDIT: Also, while I still remember, the 20th entry has finally opened up. From memory, Eurobrun was the first on the reserve list so if he takes the spot up (Which I believe he will), I would like to be the first to welcome Mr Chris Forbes into the F1RTA.

[AndreaModa]

Whilst that debate is going on, MRT would like to raise the minor issue about test drivers. For ease of nominating official reserve drivers, MRT proposes that for any team, at least one of their test drivers should either hold a valid super license or be eligible for one. The majority of the teams meet that requirement anyway but making it official will just make it easier for team owners to have ready-made replacements should the need arise.

EDIT: Also, while I still remember, the 20th entry has finally opened up. From memory, Eurobrun was the first on the reserve list so if he takes the spot up (Which I believe he will), I would like to be the first to welcome Mr Chris Forbes into the F1RTA.

I want confirmation from Aerond about who is the next into the series before any further announcements are made.

Also, the test drivers idea is good, albeit self-explanatory.

[Phoenix]

Aeroracing Engineering nominates Tanner Jason as test and reserve driver for 2015

[tommykl]

Unless someone wants their driver to step up (I can't think of anyone right now), Laurent Seron will be Gillet ENB's official reserve driver for 2015. He currently doesn't meet any of the license criteria, but I'd like to make him take part in a pre-season test session to ensure he's eligible. Is that OK?

[Klon]

Oi, if I understood this correctly you must not nominate (a) reserve driver(s) but if you do, you must have at least one with a Reject License. This is correct, right?
Alright, now we need to do something essential - determine what F1RTA agreed on in 2014 so it actually gets put into practice from next season onwards.

I have looked through the thread and taken anything that got a positive response:
- Turbo ban
- Penalties for teams earning F2RWRS price credits if winning driver is released
- F2RWRS engine tender
- B-Teams being sold
- 5 driver limit
- F2RWRS and F3RWRS not run ahead of F1RWRS schedule
- Pay driver cap
- Race length extension to 320 km (= 200 miles)
- Monaco running full length
- New teams picking engine/chassis combination last
- Inclusion of car #13 on the grid
- Test driver regulations

Now most of that has already been set in stone, just writing it up so we are on one page.

[dr-baker]

Oi, if I understood this correctly you must not nominate (a) reserve driver(s) but if you do, you must have at least one with a Reject License. This is correct, right?
Alright, now we need to do something essential - determine what F1RTA agreed on in 2014 so it actually gets put into practice from next season onwards.

I have looked through the thread and taken anything that got a positive response:
- Turbo ban
- Penalties for teams earning F2RWRS price credits if winning driver is released
- F2RWRS engine tender
- B-Teams being sold
- 5 driver limit
- F2RWRS and F3RWRS not run ahead of F1RWRS schedule
- Pay driver cap
- Race length extension to 320 km (= 200 miles)
- Monaco running full length
- New teams picking engine/chassis combination last
- Inclusion of car #13 on the grid
- Test driver regulations

Now most of that has already been set in stone, just writing it up so we are on one page.

I remember all that being discussed, and agree with all of it, except for the test driver regulations. What will the rules be around them? What are the advantages to having one? etc...

[JeremyMcClean]

Also, can the team holding the #13 defer the decision and use the #14 & #15 instead?

[dr-baker]

Also, can the team holding the #13 defer the decision and use the #14 & #15 instead?

Which, as things currently stand, looks like it will be Foxdale, won't it? and, if it is, I won't have any problems with having number 13, but worth clarifying anyway.

[Wizzie]

Unless someone wants their driver to step up (I can't think of anyone right now), Laurent Seron will be Gillet ENB's official reserve driver for 2015. He currently doesn't meet any of the license criteria, but I'd like to make him take part in a pre-season test session to ensure he's eligible. Is that OK?

Should be fine. I'm pretty sure that's covered by the regulations anyway. However, if he does do a pre-season test, it's Aerond's digression as to whether he gets a Superlicense or not

[Wizzie]

200 credits is a lot in the f1RWRS world and equals, for example, to a 20bhp upgrade, which can mean about 1 second per lap at an standard mileage track.

Knowing that GP4 performance files are virtually the same as GP2 performance files after the discussion about the experience system and having done some independent testing of my own, I've established that a 20bhp upgrade is NOT worth a second a lap. Infact, it's about half of that at 4-6 tenths a lap on a 90 second lap. Therefore, MRT will reaffirm their position and vote completely against point A.

[Aerond]

Wizzie, you perfecty know 200 credits is not in proportion to F1RWRS. I still don't understand how you think it's fair
F2RWRS drivers bring more money than most F1RWRS prizes. I was forced to bring down F1RWRS prizes and I sincerely think skyrocketing F2RWRS prizes is both idiotic (because it's an extra) and out of touch with the new prize system structure in F1RWRS

[Wizzie]

Wizzie, you perfecty know 200 credits is not in proportion to F1RWRS. I still don't understand how you think it's fair
F2RWRS drivers bring more money than most F1RWRS prizes. I was forced to bring down F1RWRS prizes and I sincerely think skyrocketing F2RWRS prizes is both idiotic (because it's an extra) and out of touch with the new prize system structure in F1RWRS

But, if it now counts under the paydriver cap, how is there any benefit over running, say, Rosco Vantini over a paydriver? After 6 races, it just wouldn't make sense financially, especially if Vantini doesn't score any decent results. It'll eventually defeat the purpose of running a feeder category as there'll be no point in running a regular driver over a pay-driver.

[eurobrun]

Just out of curiosity, does my entry need to be officially confirmed before I can make any announcements.

[AdrianSutil]

Just out of curiosity, does my entry need to be officially confirmed before I can make any announcements.

Yes obviously.

Going back to the F2RWRS prize money allocation, what about my previous idea over 'parachute payments'? Anyone in here who knows English football will understand and for those of you that don't, it's a very simple concept. Instead of a team getting a massive whack of credits in one go for promoting a driver, you get half the credits in the first year and the second half (irrelevent if you don't even run said driver anymore) in the second year.
Therefore, any big performance gain from recieving a large amount of credits in one go is wiped out. I think this is a reasonable idea that should be considered.

[Shizuka]

I remember all that being discussed, and agree with all of it, except for the test driver regulations. What will the rules be around them? What are the advantages to having one? etc...

Who does even want to be Shonan's anyway. Too poor to afford one, lol.

[Stramala]

I remember all that being discussed, and agree with all of it, except for the test driver regulations. What will the rules be around them? What are the advantages to having one? etc...

Who does even want to be Shonan's anyway. Too poor to afford one, lol.

Phil McCracken has a superlicense and is currently unemployed [/freepromotiononbehalfofnuppizbecauseheusedtobemydriver]

[AndreaModa]

I like the parachute payment idea. The total number of credits brought to a team by a promoted F2RWRS driver will be a maximum of 200, but spread out. I think a slightly better proposal would be to pay half at the start of the year, and the second half at the mid-point of the season (so for round 9 in a 16 race calender). That ensures the incentive is still good, but has less impact on teams' budgets.

[JeremyMcClean]

I remember all that being discussed, and agree with all of it, except for the test driver regulations. What will the rules be around them? What are the advantages to having one? etc...

Who does even want to be Shonan's anyway. Too poor to afford one, lol.

Phil McCracken has a superlicense and is currently unemployed [/freepromotiononbehalfofnuppizbecauseheusedtobemydriver]

He can be ArrowTech's third driver!

[Aerond]

Wizzie, you perfecty know 200 credits is not in proportion to F1RWRS. I still don't understand how you think it's fair
F2RWRS drivers bring more money than most F1RWRS prizes. I was forced to bring down F1RWRS prizes and I sincerely think skyrocketing F2RWRS prizes is both idiotic (because it's an extra) and out of touch with the new prize system structure in F1RWRS

But, if it now counts under the paydriver cap, how is there any benefit over running, say, Rosco Vantini over a paydriver? After 6 races, it just wouldn't make sense financially, especially if Vantini doesn't score any decent results. It'll eventually defeat the purpose of running a feeder category as there'll be no point in running a regular driver over a pay-driver.

No, if the F2RWRS driver happens to be a pay driver, the team receives both the F2RWRS money and the 20 credits per race, but it just happens both money counts towards pay driver cap. However, I admit 75 credits might be too strict and we could stretch it instead to:

1st - 100 cr
2nd - 60
3rd - 40
4th - 20
5th - 10

[JeremyMcClean]

Wizzie, you perfecty know 200 credits is not in proportion to F1RWRS. I still don't understand how you think it's fair
F2RWRS drivers bring more money than most F1RWRS prizes. I was forced to bring down F1RWRS prizes and I sincerely think skyrocketing F2RWRS prizes is both idiotic (because it's an extra) and out of touch with the new prize system structure in F1RWRS

But, if it now counts under the paydriver cap, how is there any benefit over running, say, Rosco Vantini over a paydriver? After 6 races, it just wouldn't make sense financially, especially if Vantini doesn't score any decent results. It'll eventually defeat the purpose of running a feeder category as there'll be no point in running a regular driver over a pay-driver.

No, if the F2RWRS driver happens to be a pay driver, the team receives both the F2RWRS money and the 20 credits per race, but it just happens both money counts towards pay driver cap. However, I admit 75 credits might be too strict and we could stretch it instead to:

1st - 100 cr
2nd - 60
3rd - 40
4th - 20
5th - 10

Sounds reasonable!

[Nuppiz]

Phil McCracken has a superlicense and is currently unemployed [/freepromotiononbehalfofnuppizbecauseheusedtobemydriver]

He can be ArrowTech's third driver!

As his manager, I approve of this.

[the Masked Lapwing]

Wizzie, you perfecty know 200 credits is not in proportion to F1RWRS. I still don't understand how you think it's fair
F2RWRS drivers bring more money than most F1RWRS prizes. I was forced to bring down F1RWRS prizes and I sincerely think skyrocketing F2RWRS prizes is both idiotic (because it's an extra) and out of touch with the new prize system structure in F1RWRS

But, if it now counts under the paydriver cap, how is there any benefit over running, say, Rosco Vantini over a paydriver? After 6 races, it just wouldn't make sense financially, especially if Vantini doesn't score any decent results. It'll eventually defeat the purpose of running a feeder category as there'll be no point in running a regular driver over a pay-driver.

No, if the F2RWRS driver happens to be a pay driver, the team receives both the F2RWRS money and the 20 credits per race, but it just happens both money counts towards pay driver cap. However, I admit 75 credits might be too strict and we could stretch it instead to:

1st - 100 cr
2nd - 60
3rd - 40
4th - 20
5th - 10

But what if they aren't a pay driver? If you ran Vantini for a whole season, you'd still get virtually nothing compared to running a pay driver for the same time. Take your revision here. If I wanted to put Vantini in the second HRT seat, I'd get 60 credits and have to run him for the whole season. I'd get the same amount if I ran O'Lauchlan for 3 races, and I don't evene have to put in the car the entire season. With this system, there is no benefit to running F2RWRS drivers, and thus no incentive to do so. Which means teams will turn to pay drivers for income, and the quality of the series drops when all the regular drivers retire. As it is, the only way F2 and F3 drivers really stand to get into the F1RWRS is if they get promoted within the same organisation (e.g. HRT, MRT, Jones etc.)

As for the parachute payments, if we use Wizzie's original plan, then I'm all for it, but with the revised ones there is simply too few credits available to make it work (seriously, why split the 10 credits for a 5th placed driver?)

[dr-baker]

But what if they aren't a pay driver? If you ran Vantini for a whole season, you'd still get virtually nothing compared to running a pay driver for the same time. Take your revision here. If I wanted to put Vantini in the second HRT seat, I'd get 60 credits and have to run him for the whole season. I'd get the same amount if I ran O'Lauchlan for 3 races, and I don't evene have to put in the car the entire season. With this system, there is no benefit to running F2RWRS drivers, and thus no incentive to do so. Which means teams will turn to pay drivers for income, and the quality of the series drops when all the regular drivers retire. As it is, the only way F2 and F3 drivers really stand to get into the F1RWRS is if they get promoted within the same organisation (e.g. HRT, MRT, Jones etc.)

You seem to be suggesting that Foxdale may be screwed by not having run a paydriver all season (until McFry debuts at the final round)? We'll see.