The Formula 1 Rejects Teams Association (F1RTA) Thread

[Phoenix]

What exactly is the BMW P87?

[tommykl]

What exactly is the BMW P87?

It's the engine in the back of the F2RWRS cars.

[JeremyMcClean]

I'm ok with the engine being one-make, but can we rebadge it as we please? Seems rather silly that Aston Martin is using a BMW engine

[Stramala]

I have a third point to add.

The ability to buy drivers out of their contracts at other teams using credits. The team which the driver departs recieves the credits. However the existing team has the right to refuse all offers & retain their driver, but have to pay a small fee to do so. e.g. Nathanael Spencer finishes second in the championship, therefore his random grip value is smaller and a more valuable driver. Team X offers 100 credits to replace their rubbish current driver. MRT has to pay 10% of the offer amount to retain him should an offer come in.

IMO it's a useful performance equaliser. Strong teams will get stronger and stronger if they are allowed to retain the same drivers for ten straight seasons with no change. We needed a way to avoid it happening and this is it. Promising rookies from F2RWRS will become more attractive, even if they didn't finish Top 3 in the championship, because they won't cost a dime to sign, drivers who have one so-so season in their rookie year have a better chance of being retained and improved because they won't cost any money either, and it stops the forming of superteams.

[Warren Hughes]

I also have an item to add to the agenda, one that I think is quite important, but I haven't got time to verbalise my thoughts right now, so you'll have to wait until tomorrow.

[AndreaModa]

It's a good idea in theory, but it won't achieve much because what about team owners running their own teams? Melrose not actually running in his is a bit odd I must say, but for the rest (Andrea Acuri, Phoenix McAllister, Sammy Jones, Douglas Mann, etc, etc) why should they be penalised for wanting to remain with the team that they're running? And the other thing is, if I want to keep Jones and Melrose as Castrol Jones Racing's line up, then regardless I'm going to do that aren't I? Unless I need the cash fast, I'm going to hold on to them, so the only teams that these sort of deals are going to take place at are those who are under-performing and need the credits to improve their cars. We can therefore assume that the drivers in these teams aren't going to be the best ones on the grid (there may of course be a few exceptions) so who's going to be interested in paying a whole chunk of credits for their services?

Also bear in mind, this is only the 5th season we've run, it's easily the most popular series on the forum, and we've had different winners almost every year (the only exception being Prospec winning the first two constructors' championships). I really don't think there's any need for changes like these which will no doubt cause confusion and complicate what is already a fairly complex off-season with credit calculations, allocations, chassis and engine changes, driver changes, pay drivers, new teams, merging teams, etc, etc.

[Stramala]

Point #4: B-Teams should be banned. Too many people want just one team, we can't have people owning multiple ones. If grid numbers weren't limited I'd be fine with it, but this way, at least no-one can play the system the way the Aussies have been

[the Masked Lapwing]

I have a third point to add.

The ability to buy drivers out of their contracts at other teams using credits. The team which the driver departs recieves the credits. However the existing team has the right to refuse all offers & retain their driver, but have to pay a small fee to do so. e.g. Nathanael Spencer finishes second in the championship, therefore his random grip value is smaller and a more valuable driver. Team X offers 100 credits to replace their rubbish current driver. MRT has to pay 10% of the offer amount to retain him should an offer come in.

IMO it's a useful performance equaliser. Strong teams will get stronger and stronger if they are allowed to retain the same drivers for ten straight seasons with no change. We needed a way to avoid it happening and this is it. Promising rookies from F2RWRS will become more attractive, even if they didn't finish Top 3 in the championship, because they won't cost a dime to sign, drivers who have one so-so season in their rookie year have a better chance of being retained and improved because they won't cost any money either, and it stops the forming of superteams.

You can't pay to keep you're driver, otherwise what's stopping teams with no money from constantly making offers they know won't get accepted, just to get some money?

And the only drivers who have been with the same team every year they have competed are Davies (my driver & team), Moll (tommy's driver & team), Martins (on the verge of being sacked), Douglas Mann (well, all three teams owned by dr-baker) and Older Jr (on the verge of being sacked). There's probably a few more, but those are the main ones.

[the Masked Lapwing]

Point #4: B-Teams should be banned. Too many people want just one team, we can't have people owning multiple ones. If grid numbers weren't limited I'd be fine with it, but this way, at least no-one can play the system the way the Aussies have been

I'd get rid of GRM if I can be assured of the same thing as Wizzie got for the Horizon sale - credits for HRT. He set the precendent.

[Klon]

Point #4: B-Teams should be banned. Too many people want just one team, we can't have people owning multiple ones. If grid numbers weren't limited I'd be fine with it, but this way, at least no-one can play the system the way the Aussies have been

I'd get rid of GRM if I can be assured of the same thing as Wizzie got for the Horizon sale - credits for HRT. He set the precendent.

No, that loophole has already been closed. No credits for you.

[dr-baker]

And the only drivers who have been with the same team every year they have competed are Davies (my driver & team), Moll (tommy's driver & team), Martins (on the verge of being sacked), Douglas Mann (well, all three teams owned by dr-baker) and Older Jr (on the verge of being sacked). There's probably a few more, but those are the main ones.

I never really owned West Cliff Racing did I? I set up MAN Racing to provide Hagane Shizuka an escape from West Cliff!!!

[the Masked Lapwing]

Point #4: B-Teams should be banned. Too many people want just one team, we can't have people owning multiple ones. If grid numbers weren't limited I'd be fine with it, but this way, at least no-one can play the system the way the Aussies have been

I'd get rid of GRM if I can be assured of the same thing as Wizzie got for the Horizon sale - credits for HRT. He set the precendent.

No, that loophole has already been closed. No credits for you.

Then I'm keeping GRM. Simple.

[Stramala]

I'd get rid of GRM if I can be assured of the same thing as Wizzie got for the Horizon sale - credits for HRT. He set the precendent.

No, that loophole has already been closed. No credits for you.

Then I'm keeping GRM. Simple.

You're approaching this all wrong. Why can't we just out-vote MRT to sanction them financially retroactively?

[the Masked Lapwing]

No, that loophole has already been closed. No credits for you.

Then I'm keeping GRM. Simple.

You're approaching this all wrong. Why can't we just out-vote MRT to sanction them financially retroactively?

Because he already has a brilliant car.

[Klon]

Then I'm keeping GRM. Simple.

I am afraid that this won't be an option, my dear.

[Stramala]

Then I'm keeping GRM. Simple.

You're approaching this all wrong. Why can't we just out-vote MRT to sanction them financially retroactively?

Because he already has a brilliant car.

And? Take HP out of his engine! Block revenue streams until the amount gained by MRT has been returned to the F1RWRS comission!

And back to an earlier point, put my credits for drivers idea aside for a moment, how would a scenario where two different teams want the same driver be resolved?

[Aerond]

Mmmh... calm down, calm down...

IMHO, TMLW should be able to keep GRM as he wants to; as long as he runs it totally independently to HRT, and he deserves some credit for being the creator of the series. It´s just B-Teams won´t be allowed from now on, but I´m not in favour of robbing a team owner of its own team, as long as current double team owners are capable of running their teams independently.

MRT won´t be penalised because we´ve already taken measures to equal racing (turbo engines ban, total BHP limited to 810 for any engine from next year, TV money favouring teams at the back).

[JeremyMcClean]

Mmmh... calm down, calm down...

IMHO, TMLW should be able to keep GRM as he wants to; as long as he runs it totally independently to HRT, and he deserves some credit for being the creator of the series. It´s just B-Teams won´t be allowed from now on, but I´m not in favour of robbing a team owner of its own team, as long as current double team owners are capable of running their teams independently.

MRT won´t be penalised because we´ve already taken measures to equal racing (turbo engines ban, total BHP limited to 810 for any engine from next year, TV money favouring teams at the back).

I already did myself a good favour by distancing Acuri as far apart from ArrowTech as possible. So far it's worked...

[Stramala]

Mmmh... calm down, calm down...

IMHO, TMLW should be able to keep GRM as he wants to; as long as he runs it totally independently to HRT, and he deserves some credit for being the creator of the series. It´s just B-Teams won´t be allowed from now on, but I´m not in favour of robbing a team owner of its own team, as long as current double team owners are capable of running their teams independently.

MRT won´t be penalised because we´ve already taken measures to equal racing (turbo engines ban, total BHP limited to 810 for any engine from next year, TV money favouring teams at the back).

What is the point of that? You are allowed to hog two slots as long as you aren't sharing stuff between them? That does nothing to fix the entry list congestion.

[Aerond]

What is the point of that? You are allowed to hog two slots as long as you aren't sharing stuff between them? That does nothing to fix the entry list congestion.

As I said, it´s just my personal opinion on it, but as usual, I´ll do what the majority orders.

[the Masked Lapwing]

We need a proper vote on this thing.


And I'm being a bit technical (and desperate) here, but kostas doesn't actually have an F1RWRS team yet, so shouldn't be able to vote.

[Stramala]

We need a proper vote on this thing.


And I'm being a bit technical (and desperate) here, but kostas doesn't actually have an F1RWRS team yet, so shouldn't be able to vote.

However F1RTA includes rules discussion relating to junior formulae, thus superseding your point.

[the Masked Lapwing]

We need a proper vote on this thing.


And I'm being a bit technical (and desperate) here, but kostas doesn't actually have an F1RWRS team yet, so shouldn't be able to vote.

However F1RTA includes rules discussion relating to junior formulae, thus superseding your point.

Remember who runs the F3RWRS

[JeremyMcClean]

I'll vote in favour of Aerond's proposal but if necessary I'll axe one of the teams.

[Stramala]

We need a proper vote on this thing.


And I'm being a bit technical (and desperate) here, but kostas doesn't actually have an F1RWRS team yet, so shouldn't be able to vote.

However F1RTA includes rules discussion relating to junior formulae, thus superseding your point.

Remember who runs the F3RWRS

Which is rather the entire point of my crusade.

[AndreaModa]

I think if we approach this sensibly from all sides, we can resolve this without too much grief. Both Wizzie and TMLW played the system well during the 2013 season with the driver swaps, etc. I didn't really realise it at the time, but on reflection it's obvious. However that's in the past now so there's no point getting hung up on that. I think the matter has suitably been resolved for the 2014 season, however I still feel it's unfair that a member can run more than one team when there are a number of respected forum contributors requesting an entry slot on an already full grid. I don't care how separate the teams are, ultimately whether the two are benefiting from each other or not, it's depriving the series from more contributors, as well as fresh faces, ideas and approaches. I also feel that we're approaching the point where we could have a grid made up of members contributing quotes, posts, anything to the series on or nearly a daily basis. The fact is that we don't, and I think perhaps it's unfair for example that Trueba, as Aerond has pointed out, are a fundamentally good team with good potential, but have done sod all since the season started. That slot could be filled by any on the current waiting list and we could have regular contributions that would make the series that little bit richer in content. I think it's unfair that a slot can be taken by someone who contributes very little, when those contributing a lot can't get a look in. We need to resolve the entry requirements so that things are a little more fair.

Having said that, we are also approaching the point where we have a saturation in the number of drivers. There are a number already that don't have drives - Tristan Jung, Dave Simpson, amongst others - you only have to look at the former drivers list on the wiki's main page to see what I mean. With the introduction of the feeder series, we have members now with an awful lot of drivers under their control. To take the most obvious example, Kostas is currently flooding the market with his drivers. Now what happens if Kostas has real world commitments that prevents him from managing his drivers? Do we have another Virgin InterCorse farce like in 2013? It seems awfully hypocritical that it is Kostas of all people leading a witch hunt against two-team members when his totally inactive team took up a valuable slot during the 2013 season? Not only should we have a balance of teams per members, we also need a balance of drivers per members.

It's harsh that we should have to deprive members of teams and drivers that they've worked to develop a history for, but for the series to be fair, we need to set some guidelines to allow everyone who wants to participate to be able to.

Therefore I think we should have:
Maximum of 1 team per member in each series.
Maximum of 5 drivers per member in all series.

Because drivers don't have a value tied to them, they can be dispensed of relatively easy, but teams are a different proposition. Admittedly what Wizzie got away with by selling Horizon was in hindsight very unsporting, and MRT's success this year can be partly attributed to the credits generated from that sale. However this surely cannot be the precedent, and indeed won't be if we limit members to one team. We already know SuperAguri is effectively giving his Sunshine entry to DanielPT, and so will receive no compensation, but it's clear that TMLW isn't willing to give up his GRM entry without compensation. As far as I'm aware, JeremyMcLean is the only other member with two teams, Acuri and ArrowTech. Therefore I'm happy with only three members being compensated half the value of their second teams' chassis and engine at the end of the 2014 season in order to free up the slots for new teams. We could establish conditions to the use of those credits, for example they could only be used to improve the existing packages of those members' other teams, or something similar. But as it's only three members, and thus three teams on the grid, I haven't a problem with the credits being given out.

The fact is, we have many members wanting entries, and not enough to go round, so something has to give. I think this is the only sensible way.

But guys, let's not get our knickers in a twist about it all, because when all's said and done, it's just a game.

[Wizzie]

Admittedly what Wizzie got away with by selling Horizon was in hindsight very unsporting, and MRT's success this year can be partly attributed to the credits generated from that sale. However this surely cannot be the precedent, and indeed won't be if we limit members to one team.

Partly is an understatement to be honest. But at the same time, Foxdale had exactly the same opportunity as I had at the start of the year and yet one flourished while the other floundered. I think the thing that really saved me however was that I basically set in my plan for 2014 in motion by the second test for 2013 and stuck to it although even I was surprised that the car was so quick. I was expecting to be at the level of the likes of HRT and Jones Racing at the absolute most.

Speaking of Trueba, I'm actually very close to declaring the Junior Team as fair game for anyone to buy for 2015 with priority to the six teams already on the waiting list (Jones, MA Racing, Lotus, Scuderia Alitalia, Dofasco whose entry I accidentally missed the first time around and is now 4th on the priority list, and Eurobrun's entry)

[eurobrun]

Speaking of Trueba, I'm actually very close to declaring the Junior Team as fair game for anyone to buy for 2015 with priority to the six teams already on the waiting list (Jones, MA Racing, Lotus, Scuderia Alitalia, Dofasco whose entry I accidentally missed the first time around and is now 4th on the priority list, and Eurobrun's entry)

Can I reserve this entry ?

[Wizzie]

Speaking of Trueba, I'm actually very close to declaring the Junior Team as fair game for anyone to buy for 2015 with priority to the six teams already on the waiting list (Jones, MA Racing, Lotus, Scuderia Alitalia, Dofasco whose entry I accidentally missed the first time around and is now 4th on the priority list, and Eurobrun's entry)

Can I reserve this entry ?

Jones Racing has first preference as to whether he wants to take over the Trueba Junior Team. After that, it's free for all with people on the reserve list getting preferential treatment. As for new entries however, it'll be in the order posted above.

[eurobrun]

OK

(imo That should be the rule for the F1RWRS as well)

[the Masked Lapwing]

OK

(imo That should be the rule for the F1RWRS as well)

It is the rule

[Wizzie]

OK

(imo That should be the rule for the F1RWRS as well)

It is the rule

Actually, if my understanding is correct, it's the reserve list order for both making new teams and buying out existing teams.

[eurobrun]

EDIT

[eurobrun]

Sorry, Kostas22 said the rule was what Wizzie said

[Aerond]

OK

(imo That should be the rule for the F1RWRS as well)

It is the rule

Actually, if my understanding is correct, it's the reserve list order for both making new teams and buying out existing teams.

Yes, I must also indicate that, if a member in the reserve team doesn´t want a buyout when a team is offered, that reserve will come back to the first of the waiting list for new entries, but won´t be able to participate in any other buyout.

[Klon]

I would like to add another point to the schedule:

* Equalization of point systems: it is rather silly to have direct feeder series going with completely different point systems than the main series. Due to the nature of the F3RWRS weekend, it is slightly justifiable there, not for F2RWRS however. While this is obviously an in-character point only, it would be stupid to teach young drivers a different style of battling for points than the one they need. Whether this is done by changing the F1RWRS point systems or the F3- and F2RWRS point systems is not of importance to me.

Therefore I think we should have:
Maximum of 1 team per member in each series.
Maximum of 5 drivers per member in all series.

Would this limit count for actual drivers in the series or only for those who are active? I mean I currently have five drivers in all series (Kay Lon, Alberto Cara, Du Lei, Tomo Kazama and Renaldo Jiménez). Now, the fact is I don't think the Jiménez character makes for fun roleplaying which is why I plan on giving him a bogus F1RWRS drive to give him a Reject License to have him as an pay-driver option for 2015 onwards and replace him with a more interesting character. That would technically mean that I have six drivers but only use five. Would this be legit?

[SuperAguri]

It's harsh that we should have to deprive members of teams and drivers that they've worked to develop a history for, but for the series to be fair, we need to set some guidelines to allow everyone who wants to participate to be able to.

Agreed, althogh maybe more drivers should think about retiring at the start of each season.

Therefore I think we should have:
Maximum of 1 team per member in each series.
Maximum of 5 drivers per member in all series.

Fantastic idea. 1 team per member, although non influence co-shares should be allowed (so Prince Falik can remain co-owner with no real influence) with Arrowtech. Members with more then one team per series should be forced to give the team up and either close or sell the team off without anything but minimal compensation.

5 Drivers per member in all series should be good, although I think there needs to be a waiting list in both F2 and F3, so we know there are drivers waiting. As I left the slots open for as long as possible in both F2 and F3 before having to choose my own driver so I have 6 drivers in all series.

I would recommend we have a sticky and closed post (so only moderators can edit it) which sole purpose is to list all the current enteries in both teams and drivers with members who own them in F1RWRS, F2 and F3. This way it will be easy to reference and should be updated with drivers and teams waiting to enter F3 and F2. It should also have information on how people can enter or reserve a slot in the serieses in question. So people who want to enter teams do not have to search through the current threads trying to find this information out (as it is quite hard to find which members are currently waiting for a free slot in F1RWRS...). This could be on the Wiki too, but the Wiki thread should be stickied so it is easy to find.

But guys, let's not get our knickers in a twist about it all, because when all's said and done, it's just a game.

Indeed.

Hey Jones, this tea is cold get me another one. :p

Regarding Klons point : The points systems don't have to be the same, makes it more interesting, especially in the lower series but in the main series 10-6-4-3-2-1 is fine.

[Shizuka]

I never really owned West Cliff Racing did I? I set up MAN Racing to provide Hagane Shizuka an escape from West Cliff!!!

Yes.

Also:
Maximum of 1 team per member in each series.
Maximum of 5 drivers per member in all series.

Fine with me, I run a F1WRS and a F3WRS team, with two drivers in the latter and right now on the sidelines with myself on the former. I'm keeping it simple.

[Stramala]

5 drivers per memeber doesn't work. There are some people with F1RWRS, F2RWRS and F3RWRS teams. This adds up to a grand total of seven drivers across all series.

Right now in the system regarding my own drivers I have Bastiaan van Nieuwenhuijzen, Alessandro Lucarelli, Gianluigi Pazzini, Enrico Molinaro, Lorenzo Crescenzi and Rangar Larsen. That's six. The reason I am "flooding" the young driver market right now is not so I can permanently have far more drivers than everyone else, it was just to try and get a couple of those moving up the ranks faster, and holding the rest back for longer. If I have an F2RWRS team next season (or indeed this season, if Trueba's F2RWRS team is included in the sale) it is my intention to most likely promote Alessandro Lucarelli and someone else there. Therefore in 2015 I would intend to have Crescenzi and Larsen driving for Scuderia Alitalia & the second seats at Christopherson/EUROBRUM and Lotus Development by RonDen Racing Engineering would be free once again.

[Aerond]

I never really owned West Cliff Racing did I? I set up MAN Racing to provide Hagane Shizuka an escape from West Cliff!!!

Yes.

Also:
Maximum of 1 team per member in each series.
Maximum of 5 drivers per member in all series.

Fine with me, I run a F1WRS and a F3WRS team, with two drivers in the latter and right now on the sidelines with myself on the former. I'm keeping it simple.

But here is my question, would things as my F3RWRS effort count towards the drivers total?? Tociclao don´t have absolutely anything to do to DGNgineering or KitKat warriors, nor It´s my intention provide drivers to the upper categories with´em.