2012 European Grand Prix discussion thread

[pasta_maldonado]

This has to be of the best races of all time

[Waris]

What the bathplug did I just watch? I think I'm not exaggerating when I say that race has been more exciting than all previous Grands Prix at the same track combined.

Also, MaldonaD'OH!

I had a nightmare last night that Schumacher got on the podium. Not gonna happen bros.

Lol. How do you feel now?

[Boomstick]

At the angle Maldonado was coming at him, he'd have had to swerve into the barrier anyway to have any hope of avoiding him.

He was forced there AFTER he was alongside Hamilton. They collided simply because Hamilton didn't give the room he should've. Unless you are looking through Lewisteric glasses that is >_>

Doesn't blame Hamilton for every incident he is involved with > Must be A Hamilton fan boy.

Hamilton was defending like a rabid dog that had been shot in both legs, but there was still no need for Maldonado to attaempt such a silly move in the first place, and he could have easily stayed alongside Hamilton and overtaken him without swerving towards him.

Sorry I have a mega soft spot for Pastor, even more after this incident......probably in the same way I like Montoya! Pastor needs to calm a bit,

Plus seeing the Hamilton fans meltdown is well quite funny. Actually its epic...possibly the best thing thats happened this year!

But realistically I think Hamilton parked it on the apex, had the racing line (I need to double check the overhead shot) so nothing doing there....why did Pastor turn in? or did he put the power down and spun into Hamilton?

Oh isn't the schu under investigation for DRS under yellow.....hope he looses his 3rd....

[pasta_maldonado]

As impressive as Alonso's and Webber's comebacks were, they could never beat John Watson and Niki Lauda's comebacks from 22nd and 23rd on the grid to 1st and 2nd at Long Beach in 1983

[mario]

Schumacher third!!!

Easily the best race Valencia's held for Formula 1. Was absolutely fantastic, and a great win for Alonso too. I'm curious if GRSJN and Vettel had the same issue, though, they retired in near exact circumstances, after all.

Also, Hamilton's fault.

It might be possible that Vettel and Grosjean had similar problems - the team told Grosjean over the radio that his alternator had failed (hence why the engine cut out so suddenly), and Vettel indicated that he also suffered from a rather abrupt loss of power (I think, but cannot be certain, that he mentioned that the engine had cut out). An electronics failure would certainly go some way to explaining why the engine might have cut out so quickly, and given they are both using the same engines, they would presumably have a fair amount of electrical components in common.

As to the question of Hamilton and Maldonado, I think that will take some time to resolve (I assume that the stewards will be looking into that incident - in fact, they have quite a few incidents to review after that race, as Vergne is also under investigation). I think that Hamilton will probably be adjudged to have been very aggressive in his defence against Maldonado - although quite a few drivers chose to run their opponent out over the kerb at that corner, including Maldonado (didn't he force Kimi out over that kerb earlier in the race?) - and probably held to be more responsible, although I guess that Maldonado might receive some criticism too (it looks like he was attempting to complete the pass whilst still off the circuit, and if that is the case, then that would be a breach of the regulations that say passing moves can only occur within the confines of the track).

Boomstick, I believe Schumacher could be under investigation (the BBC suggested that might be the case) - it looks like Schumacher's DRS was open at one point where it shouldn't have been (whether he was using it or, as might have been the case in Canada, it happened to activate itself, is unclear), so that podium might not be entirely secure. Then again, there was an incident in the Chinese GP last year where Alonso's DRS was active briefly when it shouldn't have been and Alonso and the team were let off with a reprimand, so we'll have to wait and see what happens there.

[pasta_maldonado]

*To the tune of 'Push the Button' by the sugababes*

If you really want to win,
You better, push the Button, let him go.
Why don't you, hire the Frenchman with the grin,
He's fighting for the win while Button's slow

Red Bull will beat you once again
Because of, unhappy Button, slow once more.
When you could deal with no more pain,
A dodgy pit stop, that's for sure.

[tristan1117]

Schumacher third!!!

Easily the best race Valencia's held for Formula 1. Was absolutely fantastic, and a great win for Alonso too. I'm curious if GRSJN and Vettel had the same issue, though, they retired in near exact circumstances, after all.

Also, Hamilton's fault.

It might be possible that Vettel and Grosjean had similar problems - the team told Grosjean over the radio that his alternator had failed (hence why the engine cut out so suddenly), and Vettel indicated that he also suffered from a rather abrupt loss of power (I think, but cannot be certain, that he mentioned that the engine had cut out). An electronics failure would certainly go some way to explaining why the engine might have cut out so quickly, and given they are both using the same engines, they would presumably have a fair amount of electrical components in common.

As to the question of Hamilton and Maldonado, I think that will take some time to resolve (I assume that the stewards will be looking into that incident - in fact, they have quite a few incidents to review after that race, as Vergne is also under investigation). I think that Hamilton will probably be adjudged to have been very aggressive in his defence against Maldonado - although quite a few drivers chose to run their opponent out over the kerb at that corner, including Maldonado (didn't he force Kimi out over that kerb earlier in the race?) - and probably held to be more responsible, although I guess that Maldonado might receive some criticism too (it looks like he was attempting to complete the pass whilst still off the circuit, and if that is the case, then that would be a breach of the regulations that say passing moves can only occur within the confines of the track).

Boomstick, I believe Schumacher could be under investigation (the BBC suggested that might be the case) - it looks like Schumacher's DRS was open at one point where it shouldn't have been (whether he was using it or, as might have been the case in Canada, it happened to activate itself, is unclear), so that podium might not be entirely secure. Then again, there was an incident in the Chinese GP last year where Alonso's DRS was active briefly when it shouldn't have been and Alonso and the team were let off with a reprimand, so we'll have to wait and see what happens there.

Yeah, I noticed Schumi's DRS graphic was on after he was passed Di Resta (I think). It didn't look like the flap was actually open though. I don't think that he will get penalized; if he does, it would be the ultimate Bad Luck Schumacher moment. Vergne should definitely be penalized for his move Kovalainen. You can't just move over onto the racing line without any reason or warning.

[JJMonty]

What a fantastic race that was! Renault cost two of their teams the chance of the win due to alternator failure!

A race track that you can't pass on - 11th place on the grid to first... not bad!

Going to play Devils advocate here... Hamilton was very aggressive with his defending (his moves on Raikonnen the lap before could be deemed questionable) but Maldonado - as expected, was also very aggressive.

Who do I think was at fault for the crash? Personally, I'd say both... Hamilton was too defensive and Maldonado was too aggressive as you would expect at such a time... - to me, it looked like Hamilton put Maldonado off the road as Maldonado was beside Hamilton going into the corner. However Maldonado should have backed off as there was no road left for him to use - but he didn't and as you can see from the onboard footage, got beached on the curb and so couldn't turn left even though he was trying to.

They were both as bad as each other quite frankly, but it was the closing stages of the race (last 2 laps) and so both drivers were obviously going to be pushing too hard with an attidute of "nothing to lose" and ultimately, we saw the end result.

All I'm going to say is, Hamilton should know better than that by now as to playing Russian Roulette against Maldonado in the closing stages of a race because he knows exactly how Maldonado plays - though I'm going to be very unsympathetic and say Hamilton got what he deserved for his questionable etiquete during the last few laps. Though, his tanterum in the car was bloody hilarious to watch

I will cry however if Schuy gets DQ'd

[FullMetalJack]

Amazing race, I was wondering how it would go wrong for Schumacher, but fair play to him.

On another note, four unrejectifications already this season, Di Resta almost made it five.

[mario]

Yeah, I noticed Schumi's DRS graphic was on after he was passed Di Resta (I think). It didn't look like the flap was actually open though. I don't think that he will get penalized; if he does, it would be the ultimate Bad Luck Schumacher moment. Vergne should definitely be penalized for his move Kovalainen. You can't just move over onto the racing line without any reason or warning.

We will see what happens soon enough - Andrew Benson is reporting, via Twitter, that Ross Brawn has refuted that Schumacher did anything wrong, although Benson is reporting that video footage seems to suggest that Schumacher's DRS was open whilst he was passing two marshals posts where the yellow flags were being waived.
The question now is not so much over whether Schumacher was using his DRS - that seems indisputable - but whether, by using his DRS, Schumacher was ignoring the warnings from the race director to slow down as he approached the wreckage of Hamilton's car.

As for Vergne, I have to agree that his move seemed very odd - why was Vergne steering away from the racing line and into Heikki's path when Heikki had already yielded the position and wasn't fighting him? I can't see what Vergne was trying to do, because I doubt that Heikki was trying to line him up and try a wild lunge down the inside of his car.

[F1000X]

What the bathplug did I just watch? I think I'm not exaggerating when I say that race has been more exciting than all previous Grands Prix at the same track combined.

Also, MaldonaD'OH!

I had a nightmare last night that Schumacher got on the podium. Not gonna happen bros.

Lol. How do you feel now?

I'm still trying to wake up.

[14 Hundred Hours]

I feel pretty stupid. A couple of days ago a guy in my class asked if I was going to watch the GP and I'd said 'yeah, but I don't reckon much will happen'. How wrong I was.

[WeirdKerr]

Vintage Maldonado!

And Schumacher for podium - this race is crazy eight ways from Sunday!

im putting that in my sig.......

[QuickYoda41]

Amazing race, I was wondering how it would go wrong for Schumacher, but fair play to him.

On another note, four unrejectifications already this season, Di Resta almost made it five.

... and he will, I have no doubt.

It was a great, exciting race, I knew, it had to happen some day even in Valencia. Great moments with great multiple car fights, close for the win, close for the podium places.

Schumacher deserved today's luck after his first 7 races.

Only thing I regret that Kobayashi couldn't do it this time, either, bathplugging Fake Senna! After that, he had no chance, and got himself a grid penalty for Silverstone.

[FullMetalJack]

Amazing race, I was wondering how it would go wrong for Schumacher, but fair play to him.

On another note, four unrejectifications already this season, Di Resta almost made it five.

... and he will, I have no doubt.

It was a great, exciting race, I knew, it had to happen some day even in Valencia. Great moments with great multiple car fights, close for the win, close for the podium places.

Schumacher deserved today's luck after his first 7 races.

Only thing I regret that Kobayashi couldn't do it this time, either, bathplugging Fake Senna! After that, he had no chance, and got himself a grid penalty for Silverstone.

I thought you meant Hamilton when you said Fake Senna. Go on The F1 Slate to confirm it even more.

And Di Resta will unrejectify himself. 2 6ths, 3 7ths and 2 8ths. You don't get much closer than that.

[Stramala]

Schumacher will surely be disqualified, it's just in his nature this year

[FullMetalJack]

Schumacher will surely be disqualified, it's just in his nature this year

Throughout the race, I was wondering how it would go wrong for Schumacher, just because of his miserable luck.

[James1978]

If Schumi gets penalised even I'll be upset for him and that's saying something!!!

[Stramala]

I will probably laugh my ass off if it happens. I think karma is finally catching up with him for his first career.

[giraurd]

wow ...

Actually, I would claim what made the race so good is that the track is so very difficult overtaking-wise. Look what happened at Montreal and what happened at Valencia:

You're 3 tenths faster than the guy ahead:
M - Nothing, you can't really follow the car in front to be close enough in DRS zone
V - Nothing, you can't really follow the car in front to be close enough in DRS zone

You're 2 secs faster than the guy ahead:
M - You fly past in DRS zone, whee
V - Overtaking is still difficult but not impossible, you really have to work and battle to gain a position --> other cars catch you whilst you battle --> multicar battles --> on a street track like Valencia ...

in fact, thanks to Pirelli, this race would lead me to think that this season, the races where overtaking is very difficult and races have been dull and processional in the past, actually become classics full of action instead of the traditional Spas and Montreals

[LellaLombardi]

I missed all but the last 20 minutes as mini Lella was at a gymnastics competition this morning (she won).

Well a big YAH BOO SUCKS to everyone who predicted boring. I have never bought into the idea that the dull races were caused by the Valencia track.

Awesome to see a Schumi podium. It looked like that meant more to him than many of his wins. I sincerely hope they don't take it from him - I doubt they will though. He and Alonso both showed why they are considered great drivers.

Now I'm not a Lewis fan at all, but I felt that was all Maldonado's fault and the stewards should go as far as giving him a race ban. He came from off the track straight into the side of Hamilton, who was well past him by that point. It was completely preventable. I will say again that Williams is the worst driver pairing on the grid...

...second worst is Torro Rosso. Watching Massa and a Caterham scrapping for position was rather shameful. And where was Jenson Button?

In defence of Timo Glock: Mr Lella had a similar intestinal complaint last year and it is really incapacitating. Certainly if I had a sickness bug I wouldn't manage it. But he may have only had the runs, I don't know. If he'd shown a bit more motivation there wouldn't be this doubt

[AdrianSutil]

If Schumacher does get a penalty so be it. I'll be gutted sure, but I saw Schumacher on the podium again and that's all that matters to me.

And my take on Maldonado-Hamilton incident? 50/50 both drivers are equally aggressive so it's equal blame.

[tristan1117]

in fact, thanks to Pirelli, this race would lead me to think that this season, the races where overtaking is very difficult and races have been dull and processional in the past, actually become classics full of action instead of the traditional Spas and Montreals

I totally agree. The best races of the season so far have been Valencia, Spain, China, Malaysia and Bahrain, all Tilke-dromes (par Barcelona) that are notorious for poor races. From a strategic point of view, Canada was a very good race but the on-track action was lacking, mainly because of the DRS on the back straight. This almost makes me excited for Hungary, Singapore, India and Korea, all of which are very technical tracks in changing weather conditions that are difficult to pass on.

I also find it funny that Schumacher lambasted the Pirelli tyres in the media after Round 4 (spurring Enoch to write a damning article about him). I seriously doubt that Michael would have gotten his podium without the use of the new Pirelli's and their propensity to die in the closing stages of the race. Also, can we officially put to rest any doubts about how F1 is too "artificial" these days? KERS, DRS, Pirelli and the drivers have made 2012 the most interesting F1 season in years! McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari are all within 15 points of each other in the Constructors' table!

[FullMetalJack]

Maldonado has reportedly been given a penalty, Senna up to 10th.

[Stramala]

Apparently there are also some grid penalties being handed out at the next race. News coming through is Kobayashi will be dropped 5 places, and Maldonado & Vergne will be dropped 10 places at Silverstone.

[seleucid23]

Maldonado got a 20 second penalty in this race, effectively donating his point to his team-mate Bruno Senna. Nothing for the next race, I don't think.

Schumacher has had no penalty, after seemingly have his DRS open in a yellow flag zone.

[mario]

Apparently there are also some grid penalties being handed out at the next race. News coming through is Kobayashi will be dropped 5 places, and Maldonado & Vergne will be dropped 10 places at Silverstone.

As things stand, I haven't seen any definite confirmation that Maldonado will be given a grid penalty for Silverstone. Lee McKenzie has announced via Twitter that Maldonado has been given a 20s time penalty that has dropped him down to 12th place (so Bruno Senna now inherits 10th place and the solitary point that goes with that position) - if that is the case, I think that the FIA probably won't impose a second penalty at Silverstone.
As for the remainder of the grid, the FIA have confirmed that Kobayashi will be given a five place grid penalty for Silverstone after he crashed into Massa, whilst Autosport have announced that Vergne has been handed a 10 place grid penalty for Silverstone and a €25,000 fine (the stewards considered Vergne's driving to be bad enough to warrant two penalties). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100704

[EDIT] Confirmation of Maldonado's time penalty has now been published by the FIA, with Maldonado being deemed guilty of "failing to rejoin the track in a safe matter" as defined in Article 20.2 of the sporting regulations.

The Stewards, having received a report from the Race Director, have considered the following matter, determine a breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor named below and impose the penalty referred to.
No / Driver: 18 - Pastor Maldonado
Competitor: Williams F1 Team
Time: 15:45
Session: Race
Fact: Causing a collision with Car 4 Lewis Hamilton
Offence: Involved in an incident as defined by Article 16.1 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations
Decision: Drive Through Penalty, imposed after the race in accordance with Article 16.3 (20 seconds added to the elapsed race time)
Reason: The driver failed to rejoin the track in a safe manner (Article 20.2)

Schumacher, meanwhile, will not face any penalty for his actions towards the end of the race - and, quite noticeably, the stewards have utterly rejected the complaints from Red Bull that, since Vettel was penalised for using his DRS in Barcelona, Schumacher should be penalised for using his DRS in Valencia. The point they have made is that Schumacher slowed down as he passed the crash site, therefore his decision to use the DRS is irrelevant (whereas in Barcelona Vettel went past the crash site at full speed, which would have lead to a penalty regardless of whether or not he has used his DRS).

No / Driver: 7 – Michael Schumacher
Competitor: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team
Time: 15:47
Fact: Alleged failure of Car 7 to reduce speed significantly in an area under waved yellow flags
Decision: No Further Action
Reason: The Stewards considered a report that driver 7 used his DRS in a yellow flag zone and that this allegedly constituted a breach of Yellow Flag regulations {Appendix H Article 2.4.5.1(b)}. Having examined telemetry and video evidence, and heard from the driver and team representatives, the Stewards noted that the driver did make a significant reduction in speed on entering the double waved flag zone.
Note: This incident differs substantially from that in Round 5 of the 2012 FIA Formula One Championship.

[CoopsII]

Great race at Valencia

[AdrianSutil]

I love the extra note at the bottom of Schumacher's FIA report. It basically says "Yes Red Bull, Schumacher did nothing wrong but Vettel did so stick it."

[dr-baker]

Signature changed twice in one weekend! Just how amazing was the race?!

I'm so, so happy for Schumi

And you nearly had to change it once more, if only di Resta finished one place higher...

[DOSBoot]

An amazing race at what is probably the most boring track ever created! What a win for Alonso! Was upset that Grojean didn't get the podium, but at least Raikkonen fineshed 2nd, so at least there was some consolation. Great drives by Shumacher, and Webber. Bad F-Up by Hamilton there. A miracle must have happened over Vettel's DNF. Good job by the Force India Team as well.

[East Londoner]

I just finished watching the race on the iPlayer and I have to say, my reactions throughout the entire 57 laps was: . I'm now rather hoarse from all the shouting I've been directing at proceedings. I jumped for joy when Vettel retired, and did the same when Hamilton went into the wall so late on.

The Maldonado/Hamilton incident was 50/50. Hamilton was far too aggressive in his defending, especially against someone like The Reverend who we all know is ultra-aggressive anyway, leaving him no room whatsoever but Pastor should have backed out of it instead of carrying on. Hamilton did seem very aggressive in his defending all race long, and I wonder if he was starting to see the red mist after those petulant radio messages to his race engineer earlier on, yet another pitstop gaffe which practically cost him victory IMO as Alonso jumped him because of it, and the threat of a drive-through.

Gutted for Grosjean. Absolutely gutted and he was as well.

Toro Rosso are an absolute disgrace. Those moves from both of their idiots on the Caterhams were never on in the slightest. Bring back the Alguersauras I say.

Strong performances from Webber and Schumi in the second half of the race. They came alive and scored some big points.

All in all, what a fantastic race. Best grand prix this season by far. I didn't think Valencia was capable of producing a race as good as THAT! This season just gets better and better!

[AdrianSutil]

Signature changed twice in one weekend! Just how amazing was the race?!

I'm so, so happy for Schumi

And you nearly had to change it once more, if only di Resta finished one place higher...

I know! Three changes at Valencia wouldve made my head explode

Shame Di Resta's tyres were pretty much finished by then. Rosberg mustve passed him in the final corners for 6th. I'm sure I'll be able to change it soon though

[Nuppiz]

Wow, did they accidentally run the race to a mid-90s simulation on that supercomputer which allegedly runs the races these days?

Rejectful performances by both Williamses (although the Maldonado-Hamilton collision was more Hamilton's fault IMHO), Toro Rossos (were they on an anti-Caterham mission today, as especially that move by Vergne was absolutely disgraceful?), Massa (finished behind both Caterhams; okay, so he was involved in a couple of collisions and the SC period affected it further, but still...), and last but not least Kobayashi (who was involved in more than one collision today). Lots of collisions throughout the race in general - did they secretly swap the drivers with guys from GP3? Oh, and two mechanical retirements by front-runners, not something we see every day.

Positives were Räikkönen's podium, Schumi finally having good luck (if you had said in the mid-2000s that I would think this way today, I would've laughed my face off), Caterhams being genuinely competitive despite being the target of both STR drivers' rejectful antics (Petrov ran on points on merit at one point of the race!), a ton of overtakes, and last but not least all of this happened in Valencia of all places!

[Nuppiz]

In fact, I almost cried myself when Schumi crossed the line and his team radio came up - this was clearly very emotional to him.

[WeirdKerr]

Epic race......

[nome66]

i never knew a driver went from being bored by endlessly winning everything to crying tears of joy for a third place finish

[Nuppiz]

i never knew a driver went from being bored by endlessly winning everything to crying tears of joy for a third place finish

And then forgetting to speak his own language in the press conference!

Seriously though, this showed that Schumi is now much more humble, and obviously after all of his horrible luck this was very welcome.

[LellaLombardi]

I very much doubt that Schumi got bored by winning everything. But it certainly looked like today meant more to him than some of his wins. Let's face it, if you'd worked your arse off trying to develop a car for two years while the media are giving you a fairly constant bashing you'd be pleased with third too, especially with a drive that really answers your critics.

[mario]

i never knew a driver went from being bored by endlessly winning everything to crying tears of joy for a third place finish

And then forgetting to speak his own language in the press conference!

Seriously though, this showed that Schumi is now much more humble, and obviously after all of his horrible luck this was very welcome.

It must be a huge relief for him, given, as LellaLombardi rightly points out, that the media pressure has been considerable - repeated questions about his commitment, his ability to lead the team and the constant problems he has had compared to Rosberg, who has been virtually untroubled by comparison.

On another note, as some had suspected it looks like Vettel appears to have also suffered from an alternator failure, although in his case that appears to be down to a component overheating, triggering an automatic engine shut down procedure. However, at the moment the team are uncertain what exactly caused Grosjean's problems, as it appears that he suffered a different problem.
Renault Sport also confirmed that Heikki suffered from problems with his electronics, although in Heikki's case that was linked to his KERS rather than the engine. Perhaps a couple of the teams were running with somewhat marginal cooling then, by the sounds of things - add to that the fact that the conditions in the race were the hottest it has been during the race weekend, and the slow safety car period, and it sounds as if it was just enough to tip Vettel's electronics at least into some sort of failure/auto shut down mode. http://www.f1technical.net/news/17515